The Bible: Impassioned Truth Or A Load Of Lies?
This week at my university, the Christian Union are holding a “Jesus Awareness Week” (J.A.W) and although I am only involved in one of the events (a debate on Thursday), I am trying to attend as many as I can. Last night’s talk was on the Bible (as the title of this article suggests), and the speaker was the son of Michael Howard. He came up with a list of reasons why people should trust the Bible:
The Bible proves itself to be trustworthy. It’s so obviously true that we don’t need to question it’s trustworthiness.
Yes, he actually opened his argument with that one. The standard circular argument that goes against all common sense and justification. It wouldn’t have been such a big deal if he hadn’t stated that that reason alone should convert you to Christianity. If it were so “obviously” true then rational people wouldn’t reject it, or go and worship other Gods.
The Gospels are based off eyewitness accounts from people who were alive at the time of Christ.
John was written around 90A.D, and he used this as an example. Given that the average life expectancy of people back then was much lower than it is today, the chances of someone actually seeing Jesus perform a miracle, and then living to be over 70 (if we take it as read that they would have to have been around 10 years old at the time of Jesus’ death) are remote at best. Even if this did happen, the eyewitness accounts of a child are rarely 100% accurate, and so we would have to find an eyewitness who lived to be around 76 at least, which 2000 years ago would have been even more miraculous than walking on water.
Not one of the gospels mentions the destruction of Jerusalem in 70A.D, so they must have been written before 70A.D.
This point was filled with pure inaccuracies, as I have already mentioned that the Gospel of John was written around 90A.D, and the Gospel of Mark was written after 70A.D since it does contain references to the fall of Jerusalem.
If the gospels were a hoax, they are a very bad hoax. The first person to see Jesus alive was a woman, and in that period of history it was unusual for a woman’s word to be trusted.
Yet even so, people believed her. Although there are some points that can be discussed here, the fact that people did believe shows that women were trusted somewhat. Since we are already doubting the very factual accuracy of the stories in the gospels, whether it was a woman or not is hardly a big deal.
The key facts are confirmed by non-Christian historians. Roman historian Tacitus mentions the crucifixion in his Annals writings.
Putting aside the doubts that Jesus existed, this point merely shows that there was a recorded man by the name of Jesus who was executed. It does not say he was divine, neither does it say anything about him, other than he committed blasphemy.
Paul’s first letter was written in 52A.D so it was in the time line for eyewitness accounts.
However, as I mentioned in “Jesus Christ - Fact or Fiction?“, Paul never met Jesus, which means even if he was told the story from an eyewitness, the source is secondary, and therefore prone to inaccuracies. It should also be noted that Paul always envisioned Christ in heaven, not on Earth, and that none of the miracles he supposedly performed were known about by Paul. If an eyewitness did indeed inform Paul of Jesus, why did they leave out such important parts of the story?
After the talk, the speaker admitted to the fact that the church left out gospels that were deemed to “lessen” the view of Jesus as the son of God, and outright denied the Dead Sea Scrolls as fakes, because they were written too far after the crucifixion. Actually, scientists are still unsure about the dating on the Dead Sea Scrolls, but the current estimate is between the 2nd century B.C and the 1st century A.D, so the scrolls that mention Jesus come pretty close to his supposed “resurrection”.
We were left with an ultimatum: Since Christianity is so truthful and easily trusted (according to him anyway), the burden of proof lies with the sceptics to find an alternative reason why Christianity spread so fast during after Christ’s death. Hardly the ultimatum a person whose entire belief system is structured around 100% faith should be advertising.
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I’m going to choose “load of lies.”
Every campus has loads of these guys (at least mine did, and I’m in a fairly secular area…) trying to corrupt minds while they are vulnerable, as they are in college…
RantingRaver
26 Feb 08 at 2:14 am (GMT)
RantingRaver,
Although there are some members of the CU at my uni that are against secularism and atheism, the entire group is actually very open. As soon as I got to university 5 months ago I formed an “Atheist Union” as a group to debate the CU, and our first debate is going ahead this Thursday.
Hopefully I’ll be able to write more articles about the events this week, as there are some interesting ones.
-Adrian
Adrian Hayter
26 Feb 08 at 2:20 am (GMT)
I was an atheist.
In Germany as a teenager and later in the military, Christians would come up to me and start talking to me about God/Jesus, and I would ask them if He was real. They would say, “Yes.” I would say to them, “If he is real you have 60-seconds to have Him appear, if He appears I will believe.” Of course He never appeared!
While living in Frankfurt Germany, I read Eric Von Daniken’s book, Chariots of the Gods. As a young teenager it made an impact on me, and I quickly believed Eric’s theory to be the right stuff. In 1978, we moved to the New Cumberland Army Depot near Harrisburg, PA where I met a man from Guam who became my martial arts instructor. He is a very highly respected person and had attained a very high level of “enlightenment.” He was able to do unbelievable things in the physical and spiritual realm, of which I began to follow. One of the strangest things he did was stand in the middle of the floor with his hands out to his side and no one could move him. He “became an iron beam” he would say.
By the summer of 1992, I was teaching martial arts in several locations, working in a top secret job and considered myself an atheist acquainted with the spiritual realm. I was quite happy with my understanding of the universe and money was something I had plenty of. One of my favorite toys was a car stereo that I purchased in 1984 that cost me about $3,000. I loved music whether classical, rock, techno, jazz, yes, even country.
My commute was 35 minutes from Harrisburg to the U.S. Army War College in Carlisle. One day I just could not listen to the stereo anymore so I began to read poetry. Amazing what we do driving. I had memorized a large part of the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address, and about 30 poems within a few months. One day I forgot my poetry book, and I looked around the car to see if there was anything I could memorize. I saw a booklet on the back seat that was left in my car from my wife’s catholic church. Not liking religion, but needing something to memorize, I started memorizing what seemed to me to be a poem, but was really a song, “How Great Thou Art.”
With the radio off while I was driving home, I began to memorize the song and when I read the verse:
And when I think, that God, His Son not sparing;
Sent Him to die, I scarce can take it in;
That on the Cross, my burden gladly bearing,
He bled and died to take away my sin.
I said out loud, “Why would you do that?” and for a split second I thought, why did I just say that and to whom am I speaking?
(What happened next is difficult to place into text or speech. All I can say is that God is not constricted to linear time. Several things happened simultaneously and something that would take you, and I several seconds to say and do took Him a split second. Think of it as 30 seconds in 1 second?)
Then suddenly I heard an audible voice come from the back seat area of my car which amazed me. The voice said, “Because, I love you.” As I heard the “B” sound in the word “Because” I felt something get out of my body and hang in the air between my head and the side window. I could sense that it was there, but I could not see it. I was never aware that I had anything in me, but I felt it get out of me and place its self right next to the left side of my head. I was slightly startled by the audible voice but more so by what just got out of me.
At the same time that I heard this audible voice—time and space changed. During the time it took Him to say the word “Because” audibly, He spoke three sentences directly into my mind and showed me two visions. All during the time I hear “Because.”
In my mind He said to me, “I Am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I Am, who stretched out the heavens.” And all of a sudden it was as if I were suspended in space and I see stars going out away from me as if someone pulled them open like a blanket filled with stars and space. I was amazed! It was beautiful! I saw this for a few seconds.
And then He spoke in my mind again, and as I heard His voice in my mind, “I Am,” I saw the road in front of me. Then right next to my right elbow over the center console an oval hole opened up right in mid air! I look down into this hole and about an eighth of a mile away I see a man dying on a cross. I knew (it was revealed to me) immediately that this was Jesus the Son of God, that He is God, and that He was dying on that cross for my sins. The holiness which came out of that hole is indescribable and my physical being was almost overwhelmed.
After looking at Jesus for a few seconds the hole closed up, and I heard the rest of the sentence, “I love you.” So He showed me all that during the time it took Him to say, “Because.”
Now I have this spirit riding along with me, right between me and the driver’s side window. I just heard God say to me audibly, “Because, I love you.” I heard His voice in my mind, saw the creation of the universe and saw Him dying on a cross, and He reveals the holiness of what Jesus did for us on that cross.
I knew that this love was unconditional. It was the first time I had ever felt unconditional love. But out of my mouth, out loud, I say, “But I’m stupid.” And I thought to my self, “Why did I just say that?” And immediately I remember my mother saying to me in many ways over the years that I was slow, couldn’t do what the other kids could do etc. etc. etc. But the love would not go away, it was unconditional. I knew that God loved me even if I could not spell. And I thought to myself, “What do you want?”
I knew that Jesus just paid for my sins and that He was Holy; I wanted to give God something back. “What do you want?” I thought. I thought I would give Him all my money… no response…He didn’t want that? I will give You all my money and my house?…no response… He didn’t want that? I will give You all my money, my house, and my cars?… no response. What do You want?…. Me! I felt so unworthy. I knew at this point that Jesus Christ was without sin, that He was pure and holy. Me? “Yes.” And I vividly remembered a boy that I kicked in the chest as two other boys held him bent over. Though he had a thick coat on he fell to the ground, and we ran away. Suddenly I saw what I did from God’s holy point, and I was grieved and my heart was so sorry. I began to weep, and I cried out, “O’ God, Please make it as if it never happened.” And in my spirit I heard, “Forgiven,” “Paid for.”
The spirit that was next to me in the car got out of the car and was riding along with me outside my window. I could feel it very tangibly, but I could not see it. And immediately I saw the face of a girl I had sex with when I was younger. I had forgotten about her, but when I saw her face I began to grieve deeply for what I had done. “Forgiven!” And the next sin popped up, and I grieved and was forgiven again, and again, and again. There must have been 70 to 100 images that popped up into my mind and because my heart was truly grieved and asking for forgiveness as soon as they appeared, and I dealt with them I was forgiven. This went on for a minute or so. I didn’t know that so much of what I did was sin. But as soon as they popped up I grieved and was forgiven.
Then the Lord said to me in my mind, “The way you are, right now.” And I said, “But I have to change my language.” I used foul language on a regular basis at the military basis I worked. And He said, “No, the way you are right now.” And suddenly I saw a black line in front of me, and to the left was all black with a white “No” and to the right was all white with black “Yes.” And when I saw this I leaped at the “Yes” with all my being with my spirit I could actually feel myself leap to the “Yes.” And two things happened, first the spirit that was outside my car began to leave—I sensed it, as if I could see it go up and away from me back towards Carlisle. I could sense it for about a half a mile, and then it just took off. I knew that it was gone. It wanted nothing to do with what was happening to me.
At the same time electricity touched the top of my head and as a wave began to filter down through my body. When it reached my heart another wave started at the top of my head. This continued on until I had four waves going down through my body at the same time. When one would leave my feet another would enter my head. I could not drive anymore, and I pulled over to the side of the road. My body was shaking as if being shocked—but I felt no pain. I began to cry, laugh, sing songs I had never sang. I felt such joy, such love, I was overwhelmed. This went on for an hour. Every time I would pull on to the road it would happen again, and I would have to pull over. This was the greatest day of my life. I couldn’t wait to get home and tell my wife. Oh, the love, Oh He’s real.
When I got home my wife opened up the door, and I said, “Honey, you have got to give your life to Jesus!”
She replied with a shout, “Of course I have, I’m catholic. Who are you?”
I said, “No you don’t understand, you need to give your life to Jesus!”
Five years later, Leah would have an experience which I find incredible and wonderful that would accomplish the same for her as this testimony has done for me: salvation and a personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe, the God of Three Parts; Yahweh— whom we know as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
If you had this same experience what would you be? You are what you are because you 1) Can’t believe by faith alone or 2) You have not had this or a similar experience. It is not possible for me to return to unbelief or unknowing. How can I deny this experience? And this experience was only the beginning. I could go on for hours.
Bless You.
p.s. Do you know what that was that got out of me?
FormerAtheist
26 Feb 08 at 6:04 am (GMT)
Are you telling me that you are willing to believe that lightning struck the Earth at precisely the right moment to create an amino acid, which evolved to be some kind of fish … and you can’t believe that someone lived to be 76 years old 2000 years ago?
ed
26 Feb 08 at 7:09 pm (GMT)
Ed, although an interesting theory, it’s not the only one…
It is a strong possibility that the elements necessary for life arrived on a comet and the energy (could be in many forms as there would have been dust and energy changes in the atmosphere) from the collision with the earth caused life (this is a common *theory* amongst astronomers).
ewanm89
26 Feb 08 at 9:03 pm (GMT)
ed,
The evidence suggests that people very rarely lived to be 76 years old 2000 years ago, and the evidence also suggests that amino acids were formed in a variety of ways and eventually formed life.
As soon as the evidence suggests something to the contrary, I’ll stick with my well founded “beliefs”.
Adrian Hayter
26 Feb 08 at 9:24 pm (GMT)
what is your source for either of those?
ed
26 Feb 08 at 10:03 pm (GMT)
Good article on the Jesus myth and Paul
Excellent article on the secular history surrounding “Jesus”
Great series of videos explaining exactly what scientists know.
The Atheist Jew
27 Feb 08 at 12:55 am (GMT)
Okay, FormerAtheist … thank you for your made-up story. I would like you to know something … if you are having visions you are CRAZY. If you are hearing voices you are going CRAZY.
If you need Christianity to tell you that beating someone up is wrong …. you must have always been a Christian because that’s just a retarded idea in itself.
Cappy
27 Feb 08 at 8:42 pm (GMT)
Cappy,
how can you so easily dismiss his experience? I thought that Atheist regard empiricism as the holy grail. His experience may be nothing like mine or yours, but…I haven’t seen Big Bangs recently, either.
The point here is: you accept the science that already conforms with your world view. Atheist criticize science and experience that differs from what they KNOW to be true.
ed
28 Feb 08 at 2:17 pm (GMT)
Jesus didn’t likely die in 1A.D. Instead, his death is thought to have occurred around 36AD (but you knew that already).
I still find it hard to digest the fact that you cannot accept the CHANCE that someone could live beyond their life expectancy 2000 years ago…however, you are willing to accept the UBER CHANCE of life forming out of nothing over millions of years.
ridiculous.
ed
28 Feb 08 at 5:30 pm (GMT)
No contemporary historians alive between 1 and 40 AD wrote one peep about Jeebus.
There were many alive back then. Though this does not out and out disprove a historical Jeebus, where is the evidence he existed other than in the book of fairy tales?
No one says life formed from nothing. We are made of atoms. Watch the videos from Potholer54. He shows how life was most probably formed.
There is absolutely no evidence that anyone could possibly live beyond 125, even with todays advancements in science.
The Atheist Jew
28 Feb 08 at 7:41 pm (GMT)
“from nothing” was a euphemism.
Why must I spell this out..? The criticism was: how could someone 2000 years ago live to 90 AD to write the Gospel of John. My retort is: If John was 20 when Jesus died (~36AD) this would make him 74 in 90AD.
ed
28 Feb 08 at 8:01 pm (GMT)
The Gospel of John is dated between 90-120 AD I believe. The author did not have to be the John it is attributed to either. The fact is there could have been Roman, Greek, or Jewish writings regarding Jeebus, but there are none until one line by Josephus who witnessed Christians, which is like me witnessing Scientologists or Mormons today.
It is highly probable that Paul’s dream boy morphed into a real person over a few generations as more and more common lore was added to the story as well.
The Atheist Jew
28 Feb 08 at 8:20 pm (GMT)
“however, you are willing to accept the UBER CHANCE of life forming out of nothing over millions of years.”
A small chance of life forming is an inevitability given enough time. I also accept that it is possible a god created the first microorganism.
It’s not that hard to replicate early life being created. See the Miller-Urey experiment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment
It’s not certain whether the early atmosphere of the earth was reducing or not.
“how can you so easily dismiss his experience? I thought that Atheist regard empiricism as the holy grail. His experience may be nothing like mine or yours, but…I haven’t seen Big Bangs recently, either.
The point here is: you accept the science that already conforms with your world view. Atheist criticize science and experience that differs from what they KNOW to be true.”
Because the story is obviously unrealistically biased. It has someone turning from a right-wing’s stereotypical “evil atheist” into their stereotypical “perfect Christian”.
The difference is that I have seen PROOF of the Big Bang lately. There is evidence to support it. Why are you posting on an atheist blog if you don’t believe things for which there is evidence? Should I assume you accept things without evidence, such as a clearly biased (and most likely completely fabricated) story?
As for the possibility of the bible having been written completely by the actual disciples of Jesus, it is clearly impossible. Most of the writtings in the bible are much older. Also, as mentioned, the early writings are disputable for the reasons mentioned. THe large majority of the writing of the bible came “from dreams” and not any personal account of Jesus. This is FACT, it’s not a theory.
Cappy
29 Feb 08 at 3:05 am (GMT)
“I still find it hard to digest the fact that you cannot accept the CHANCE that someone could live beyond their life expectancy 2000 years ago…however, you are willing to accept the UBER CHANCE of life forming out of nothing over millions of years.
ridiculous.”
I never said I didn’t accept the chance that someone could live to those ages, I said it would be “miraculous” if they did, especially in those days where disease was rife and people were lucky to live past 35, let alone 70.
I hate it when people refer to Evolution as “chance” because it is nothing of the sort. Yes, there are probabilities involved, but it all comes down to natural selection, a far from random process.
At the end of the day, there is more proof for the Big Bang and Evolution than there is for anything in the Bible. I’m not disregarding the theory that God “used” these two methods to create life, but I have no proof to suggest that he did.
Adrian Hayter
29 Feb 08 at 8:18 am (GMT)
Scientists can not prove big bang theory, they have a lot of evidence to take it as the most likely explanation from the evidence. I’m sure you understand the Doppler effect (I hear it every time a cop car screams down the road). Well, this same effect has been observed in light from stars, and they all show the effect in a particular direction away from us (Hubbles law, also predicts distance away from amount of redshift as we are still accelerating from the Big Bang). This is then taken further by plotting the paths of these Galaxies and it is found they all com from a very small are of space time. (With a telescope, diffraction grating, camera and math (we automate with computers now, but can be done by hand ;) ) you could observe this.
Since then other evidence has also been bought to the table so to speak:
How the cosmos looks in the microwave spectrum (you could build a microwave telescope if your heart desired), the abundance of Hydrogen and Helium when compared with Uranium and Plutonium (on a cosmological scale, you can again do this although harder), and the fact that computer simulations predict the outcome of the universe if given a singularity and the laws of physics we know (i.e. gravitational constant, magnet spin, positive and negative charges, etc all hold true).
Now until a more likely theory is put forward most Scientists agree this is the most likely given the evidence.
ewanm89
29 Feb 08 at 10:32 am (GMT)
You are absolutely correct ewanm89. The evidence does support the Big Bang but there are still a ton of questions left unsolved because the Big Bang theory doesn’t explain the acceleration of the expansion of the universe, for instance.
Cappy
1 Mar 08 at 1:23 am (GMT)
they claim that jesus exist in their time accord to the bible.
but many scientist and astrology (I spell it wrong but the word that people who study history through digging or discover things) found what is strange is that anyone usually write or draw what they witness through out history yet NOT ONE HAS FOUND ANYTHING MENTION JESUS IN HIS TIME. he’ve been famous of his time and nobody mention of him? not even in dairy.
Jesus is only mention in the bible and who wrote the bible mention Jesus birthdate at two different time. which are conflict to “accuracy and trustworthy”
I found out those at Knowreligion.net
geekdemon
17 Aug 08 at 12:30 am (GMT)
What I find sad is that you people argue about stuff like this.. Why focus your life on making someone believe something that they don’t want to. Focus your energies on more important things. I won’t ask you to change your thoughts, and you better not “ask” me to change mine..
David
17 Aug 08 at 12:50 am (GMT)
We focus our efforts on finding the truth. Since we do not believe the truth can be found in religious texts, we argue against them.
Adrian Hayter
17 Aug 08 at 1:03 am (GMT)