Comments on: Final Conversations With The Deluded http://atheistblogger.com/2008/06/19/final-conversations-with-the-deluded/ Tue, 06 Jan 2009 21:03:29 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: rafael http://atheistblogger.com/2008/06/19/final-conversations-with-the-deluded/comment-page-1/#comment-2900 rafael Sat, 02 Aug 2008 17:05:00 +0000 http://atheistblogger.com/?p=118#comment-2900 PROSECUTION Is there a God? I will not try to say yes or no to this question. Rather, I will make this place a law court. I will ask you to be the judge, and I will be the prosecutor. The work of a judge is to make decisions, to approve or disapprove the truth of statements; the work of a prosecutor is to present all the evidence and arguments that he can possibly gather. Before we proceed, we have to be clear about one fact: all prosecutors are not eyewitnesses of crimes. They are not policemen. A policeman may personally witness an event, whereas a prosecutor obtains his information only indirectly. He places all the charges, evidence, and arguments collected before the judge. In the same way, I shall present before you everything that I can possibly find. If you ask whether I have seen God or not, I would say "no." I am reading or demonstrating what I have gathered. My job is to search for facts and to call for witnesses. You are to arrive at a conclusion yourself. THE UNIVERSE First, looks at nature, the world that is before our eyes and every phenomenon in it. We all know that scientific knowledge is the rational explanation of natural phenomena. For example, there is an observed drop in the temperature of a patient. The drop in temperature is a phenomenon, and the explanation for it is scientific knowledge. When an apple falls from the tree, it is a phenomenon. Why does an apple not fly into the air? The explanation for this phenomenon constitutes knowledge. A man with knowledge is a man who has the proper explanations. ONLY TWO EXPLANATIONS The universe displays countless phenomena of diverse forms, colors, shapes, and nature. We cannot fail to notice these phenomena before our eyes. The explanation for all these phenomena is known as knowledge. All thoughtful persons have only two explanations as far as the origin of the universe is concerned; there is no third explanation. You have to take one or the other of them. What are these two explanations? The first says that the universe came into being through natural evolution and self-interaction; the second attributes its origin to a personified being with intellect and purpose. These are the only two explanations presented by all philosophers of the world. There is not a third one. Where did the universe come from? Did it come into existence by itself or through chance? Or was it designed by the One from whom we derive the concept of God? CHANCE EVENTS What are the characteristics of things that come about by chance? First, we know that they are unorganized. At the most they can be partially integrated. They can never be totally organized. One can achieve a specified goal by chance once, but he can never achieve a specified goal by chance all the time. Anything that comes together by chance can only be integrated partially, never totally. For example, if I throw this chair to the other side of the room, by chance it may come to rest at a perfect angle. If I do the same with a second chair, it may also lie neatly beside the first one. But this will not keep on happening with the third and the fourth and so on. Chance can only provide partial organization. It does not guarantee total integration. Furthermore, all random interactions are aimless, disorganized, and purposeless. They are without order and structure; they are loose, formless, disorderly, and not directed toward any meaningful purpose. Briefly, we can say that the characteristics of chance events are disharmony, irregularity, inconsistency, purposelessness, and insignificance. CONSISTENCY AND ORGANIZATION Now let us compare the things in the universe with these characteristics. Take, for example, the human being. He is carried in his mother's womb for nine months and delivered; he grows up and eventually dies. This cycle is repeated for every single individual. Consistency can be observed. It is not a wild game of chance. Again, look at the sun above your head. It does not exist purposelessly. Rather, it has its purpose and significance. Look at the moon, the stars, and the myriads of galaxies through your telescope. Some stars have their own planets. They all follow definite tracks and patterns. They are all organized. Their manner of motion can be calculated and predicted. The calendar in your hand is derived from them. Even next year's calendar can be printed before this year is past. All these show that the universe is organized, consistent, and purposeful. MICROORGANISMS Let us turn to the micro-world or quantum mechanics. Take a thin slice of wood. Put it under a microscope and observe its grain and structure, all meticulously regular and rhythmic. Even a blade of grass and the petal of a flower are finely fashioned. Nothing is unorganized or confused. Everything is disciplined and functional. All these things witness one fact to you: the universe, with its macro (the whole universe and galaxies) and micro aspects (quantum), is purposeful and meaningful. Can you say that all these came into existence by chance? Surely you cannot. CHANCE OR DESIGN The universe has to be created by someone with profound wisdom, vast knowledge, and intricate design. If you cannot accept the concept of random formation of the universe, you have to admit that it was created by such a God. There cannot be a third explanation. The choice is left to you. You have to decide if the universe came by chance or whether it was created by God. A DEMAND AND ITS OBJECT One witness may not be enough. I will call in another. This time we will consider man's heart. Before doing so, we should also observe one fact: wherever there is a desire, there must first be an object for that desire. For example, an orphan who has never seen his father naturally has a desire for a kind of paternal love. I have asked many people who were orphans, and they all have felt this irrepressible yearning. By this we can see that every desire of the heart arises out of an object in the world. As human beings we have a need for social belonging. We need companionship and mutuality. If you put a boy on a deserted island and he grows up alone, he still has the yearning for companions, for beings like himself, even though he has never seen a human being. This yearning or desire is the very proof that somewhere in the world there is something known as "man." At a certain age, man begins to think about posterity; he starts desiring children and grandchildren. This is not a mere fantasy. This desire stems out of the existence and possibility of offspring. Hence, where there is desire, there is an object for that desire. THERE IS GOD IN THE HEART Do we have any desires other than social identity and self-propagation? What other cravings do we have? Deep in everyone there is a craving for God. Whether they are highly civilized races, such as those among the Caucasians, or the ancient civilizations, such as the Chinese civilizations, or the African natives and uncultured aborigines, they all have a common craving --God. As long as they are men, they have a yearning for God, no matter what race or nationality. This is a fact. You cannot argue against it. Everyone is seeking after God. Everywhere man is craving for God. This is very clear. By applying the principle that we just mentioned, we can see that since our heart feels the need for a God, there must necessarily be a God in the universe. Since there is a need for God in the heart, there must be the existence of God in the universe. If no God exists, we would never have such a craving in our heart. We all have an appetite for food. In the same way, we all have an appetite for God. It would be impossible to live if there was only an appetite for food but no food. Likewise, it would be impossible to live if there was a capacity for God but no God. NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT GOD? Once, an atheist rudely rebuked me in a loud voice: "You said that a man has the psychological need for a God. But there is no such thing, and I do not believe in it." I said, "Well, do you mean to say that you never think about God? In fact, even while you were talking, you were thinking about Him. This indicates that you do have a capacity for God. There is no one who has never thought about God. He may try not to think much about Him. Since this thought is in you, there must be such an object outside of you. "THE WORDS AND THE HEART” A young man once came to me to argue about God. He was vehemently against the existence of God. He gave me one reason after another for saying that there is no God. As he was enumerating the various reasons why God should not exist, I listened to him quietly without saying a word. Then I said, "Although you insist that there is no God and support yourself with so many arguments, you have lost your case already." He said, "What do you mean?" I went on to explain: "Your mouth can say as much as you want about there not being a God, but your heart is on my side." He had to agree with me. Although one can give all sorts of reasons in the head, there is a belief in the heart that no argument can defeat. A stubborn person may give a thousand and one reasons, but you can have the boldness to tell him, "You know better in your heart that there is a God. Why bother to look for evidence outside?"Now what would you say? After looking at nature and the universe, after checking with your inner feeling, it is up to you to decide whether or not there is a God. But you should not be irresponsible; your attitude must be sober because everyone has to meet God soon. One day you will all stand before Him. Everything concerning you will be laid bare. On that day you will know God. But now is the time for you to be prepared. We should all be prepared to meet our God. Finally is there is a God. Who is he? Who among the most ancient religions claim to be God’s son? As well there must be a written record of God and God’s son. Among all the ancients’ written records is there such a book? PROSECUTION
Is there a God? I will not try to say yes or no to this question. Rather, I will make this place a law court. I will ask you to be the judge, and I will be the prosecutor. The work of a judge is to make decisions, to approve or disapprove the truth of statements; the work of a prosecutor is to present all the evidence and arguments that he can possibly gather. Before we proceed, we have to be clear about one fact: all prosecutors are not eyewitnesses of crimes. They are not policemen. A policeman may personally witness an event, whereas a prosecutor obtains his information only indirectly. He places all the charges, evidence, and arguments collected before the judge. In the same way, I shall present before you everything that I can possibly find. If you ask whether I have seen God or not, I would say “no.” I am reading or demonstrating what I have gathered. My job is to search for facts and to call for witnesses. You are to arrive at a conclusion yourself.
THE UNIVERSE
First, looks at nature, the world that is before our eyes and every phenomenon in it. We all know that scientific knowledge is the rational explanation of natural phenomena. For example, there is an observed drop in the temperature of a patient. The drop in temperature is a phenomenon, and the explanation for it is scientific knowledge. When an apple falls from the tree, it is a phenomenon. Why does an apple not fly into the air? The explanation for this phenomenon constitutes knowledge. A man with knowledge is a man who has the proper explanations.
ONLY TWO EXPLANATIONS
The universe displays countless phenomena of diverse forms, colors, shapes, and nature. We cannot fail to notice these phenomena before our eyes. The explanation for all these phenomena is known as knowledge. All thoughtful persons have only two explanations as far as the origin of the universe is concerned; there is no third explanation. You have to take one or the other of them. What are these two explanations? The first says that the universe came into being through natural evolution and self-interaction; the second attributes its origin to a personified being with intellect and purpose. These are the only two explanations presented by all philosophers of the world. There is not a third one. Where did the universe come from? Did it come into existence by itself or through chance? Or was it designed by the One from whom we derive the concept of God?
CHANCE EVENTS
What are the characteristics of things that come about by chance? First, we know that they are unorganized. At the most they can be partially integrated. They can never be totally organized. One can achieve a specified goal by chance once, but he can never achieve a specified goal by chance all the time. Anything that comes together by chance can only be integrated partially, never totally. For example, if I throw this chair to the other side of the room, by chance it may come to rest at a perfect angle. If I do the same with a second chair, it may also lie neatly beside the first one. But this will not keep on happening with the third and the fourth and so on. Chance can only provide partial organization. It does not guarantee total integration. Furthermore, all random interactions are aimless, disorganized, and purposeless. They are without order and structure; they are loose, formless, disorderly, and not directed toward any meaningful purpose. Briefly, we can say that the characteristics of chance events are disharmony, irregularity, inconsistency, purposelessness, and insignificance.
CONSISTENCY AND ORGANIZATION
Now let us compare the things in the universe with these characteristics. Take, for example, the human being. He is carried in his mother’s womb for nine months and delivered; he grows up and eventually dies. This cycle is repeated for every single individual. Consistency can be observed. It is not a wild game of chance. Again, look at the sun above your head. It does not exist purposelessly. Rather, it has its purpose and significance. Look at the moon, the stars, and the myriads of galaxies through your telescope. Some stars have their own planets. They all follow definite tracks and patterns. They are all organized. Their manner of motion can be calculated and predicted. The calendar in your hand is derived from them. Even next year’s calendar can be printed before this year is past. All these show that the universe is organized, consistent, and purposeful.
MICROORGANISMS
Let us turn to the micro-world or quantum mechanics. Take a thin slice of wood. Put it under a microscope and observe its grain and structure, all meticulously regular and rhythmic. Even a blade of grass and the petal of a flower are finely fashioned. Nothing is unorganized or confused. Everything is disciplined and functional. All these things witness one fact to you: the universe, with its macro (the whole universe and galaxies) and micro aspects (quantum), is purposeful and meaningful. Can you say that all these came into existence by chance? Surely you cannot.
CHANCE OR DESIGN
The universe has to be created by someone with profound wisdom, vast knowledge, and intricate design. If you cannot accept the concept of random formation of the universe, you have to admit that it was created by such a God. There cannot be a third explanation. The choice is left to you. You have to decide if the universe came by chance or whether it was created by God.
A DEMAND AND ITS OBJECT
One witness may not be enough. I will call in another. This time we will consider man’s heart. Before doing so, we should also observe one fact: wherever there is a desire, there must first be an object for that desire. For example, an orphan who has never seen his father naturally has a desire for a kind of paternal love. I have asked many people who were orphans, and they all have felt this irrepressible yearning. By this we can see that every desire of the heart arises out of an object in the world. As human beings we have a need for social belonging. We need companionship and mutuality. If you put a boy on a deserted island and he grows up alone, he still has the yearning for companions, for beings like himself, even though he has never seen a human being. This yearning or desire is the very proof that somewhere in the world there is something known as “man.” At a certain age, man begins to think about posterity; he starts desiring children and grandchildren. This is not a mere fantasy. This desire stems out of the existence and possibility of offspring. Hence, where there is desire, there is an object for that desire.
THERE IS GOD IN THE HEART
Do we have any desires other than social identity and self-propagation? What other cravings do we have? Deep in everyone there is a craving for God. Whether they are highly civilized races, such as those among the Caucasians, or the ancient civilizations, such as the Chinese civilizations, or the African natives and uncultured aborigines, they all have a common craving –God. As long as they are men, they have a yearning for God, no matter what race or nationality. This is a fact. You cannot argue against it. Everyone is seeking after God. Everywhere man is craving for God. This is very clear. By applying the principle that we just mentioned, we can see that since our heart feels the need for a God, there must necessarily be a God in the universe. Since there is a need for God in the heart, there must be the existence of God in the universe. If no God exists, we would never have such a craving in our heart. We all have an appetite for food. In the same way, we all have an appetite for God. It would be impossible to live if there was only an appetite for food but no food. Likewise, it would be impossible to live if there was a capacity for God but no God.
NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT GOD?
Once, an atheist rudely rebuked me in a loud voice: “You said that a man has the psychological need for a God. But there is no such thing, and I do not believe in it.” I said, “Well, do you mean to say that you never think about God? In fact, even while you were talking, you were thinking about Him. This indicates that you do have a capacity for God. There is no one who has never thought about God. He may try not to think much about Him. Since this thought is in you, there must be such an object outside of you.
“THE WORDS AND THE HEART”
A young man once came to me to argue about God. He was vehemently against the existence of God. He gave me one reason after another for saying that there is no God. As he was enumerating the various reasons why God should not exist, I listened to him quietly without saying a word. Then I said, “Although you insist that there is no God and support yourself with so many arguments, you have lost your case already.” He said, “What do you mean?” I went on to explain: “Your mouth can say as much as you want about there not being a God, but your heart is on my side.” He had to agree with me. Although one can give all sorts of reasons in the head, there is a belief in the heart that no argument can defeat. A stubborn person may give a thousand and one reasons, but you can have the boldness to tell him, “You know better in your heart that there is a God. Why bother to look for evidence outside?”Now what would you say? After looking at nature and the universe, after checking with your inner feeling, it is up to you to decide whether or not there is a God. But you should not be irresponsible; your attitude must be sober because everyone has to meet God soon. One day you will all stand before Him. Everything concerning you will be laid bare. On that day you will know God. But now is the time for you to be prepared. We should all be prepared to meet our God.
Finally is there is a God. Who is he? Who among the most ancient religions claim to be God’s son?
As well there must be a written record of God and God’s son. Among all the ancients’ written records is there such a book?

]]> By: Adrian Hayter http://atheistblogger.com/2008/06/19/final-conversations-with-the-deluded/comment-page-1/#comment-2427 Adrian Hayter Tue, 08 Jul 2008 17:41:50 +0000 http://atheistblogger.com/?p=118#comment-2427 Hannah, Abu was the person who first contacted me, and I have always stated on my blog that I would open to any attempts to "save my soul" or convert me to a particular religion. Given the proper evidence I would convert after making sure there weren't any possible natural explanations. However Abu's evidence was very weak in this respect. His mind has been addled by his belief that every other religion is wrong and that Islam combines all religions when the evidence suggests otherwise. My intention was to defend atheism as a logical approach to life, that was all. Some may see it as a waste of time, others will call it reasoning with a wall. I think the entire thing was actually quite funny, and it only proves that whilst I remained calm and replied rationally, he got more angry as his religion was torn apart and he realised that in actual fact he only believed what he believed because he was told so. As for your second question, I answered more fully in my reply email, but it really bears down to neither of those. I intend to spread rationalism and free thought, as well as open mindedness. If you still believe in God when you have considered all the options, that's fine by me. At least you found it through your own thinking, not through anyone else. Hannah,

Abu was the person who first contacted me, and I have always stated on my blog that I would open to any attempts to “save my soul” or convert me to a particular religion.

Given the proper evidence I would convert after making sure there weren’t any possible natural explanations. However Abu’s evidence was very weak in this respect. His mind has been addled by his belief that every other religion is wrong and that Islam combines all religions when the evidence suggests otherwise.

My intention was to defend atheism as a logical approach to life, that was all.

Some may see it as a waste of time, others will call it reasoning with a wall. I think the entire thing was actually quite funny, and it only proves that whilst I remained calm and replied rationally, he got more angry as his religion was torn apart and he realised that in actual fact he only believed what he believed because he was told so.

As for your second question, I answered more fully in my reply email, but it really bears down to neither of those.

I intend to spread rationalism and free thought, as well as open mindedness. If you still believe in God when you have considered all the options, that’s fine by me. At least you found it through your own thinking, not through anyone else.

]]> By: Hannah http://atheistblogger.com/2008/06/19/final-conversations-with-the-deluded/comment-page-1/#comment-2424 Hannah Tue, 08 Jul 2008 16:04:15 +0000 http://atheistblogger.com/?p=118#comment-2424 i have another question... is ur intention to spread truth or to find truth? neways, interesting blog. i have another question…

is ur intention to spread truth or to find truth?
neways, interesting blog.

]]> By: Hannah http://atheistblogger.com/2008/06/19/final-conversations-with-the-deluded/comment-page-1/#comment-2423 Hannah Tue, 08 Jul 2008 15:40:29 +0000 http://atheistblogger.com/?p=118#comment-2423 Wow you wasted all your hours trying to make sense with a muslim? Why do you care so much to prove this 'Abu' wrong anyways? If you're not going to hell, and he's not going to hell, and he's happy doing his thing, what are you trying to do? What is your intention? To convince someone that people can create their own rules? That this way there will finally be peace? Im not trying to be rude, im very sincere. these are my honest thoughts. please respond. i am very curious. Wow you wasted all your hours trying to make sense with a muslim? Why do you care so much to prove this ‘Abu’ wrong anyways?

If you’re not going to hell, and he’s not going to hell, and he’s happy doing his thing, what are you trying to do? What is your intention? To convince someone that people can create their own rules? That this way there will finally be peace?

Im not trying to be rude, im very sincere. these are my honest thoughts. please respond. i am very curious.

]]> By: Ernst Hot http://atheistblogger.com/2008/06/19/final-conversations-with-the-deluded/comment-page-1/#comment-2256 Ernst Hot Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:24:18 +0000 http://atheistblogger.com/?p=118#comment-2256 "But every hour that ticks off your life is bringing you nearer to eternal doom. Hellfire forever and ever and ever a life of circles." ...Unless you want to be forgiven, right? “But every hour that ticks off your life is bringing you nearer to eternal doom. Hellfire forever and ever and ever a life of circles.”

…Unless you want to be forgiven, right?

]]> By: Metro http://atheistblogger.com/2008/06/19/final-conversations-with-the-deluded/comment-page-1/#comment-2224 Metro Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:05:31 +0000 http://atheistblogger.com/?p=118#comment-2224 While I love the whole Jesus-vs-Godzilla smackdown scenario, I am forced to disapprove of the description of the so-called "cyclops" as "one-eyed". This is a clear attempt to smear the noodly devotion of Pastafarianism and cast as evil those of us who carry out the proper and orthodox worship of His Noodly Goodness by wearing full pirate regalia when evengenzalizing to the masses. Once again we are demonized. When will the persecution end? While I love the whole Jesus-vs-Godzilla smackdown scenario, I am forced to disapprove of the description of the so-called “cyclops” as “one-eyed”.

This is a clear attempt to smear the noodly devotion of Pastafarianism and cast as evil those of us who carry out the proper and orthodox worship of His Noodly Goodness by wearing full pirate regalia when evengenzalizing to the masses.

Once again we are demonized. When will the persecution end?

]]> By: Father Shaggy http://atheistblogger.com/2008/06/19/final-conversations-with-the-deluded/comment-page-1/#comment-2217 Father Shaggy Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:27:00 +0000 http://atheistblogger.com/?p=118#comment-2217 "Before this doomsday there will be the returning of Jesus to fight and defeat the one eyed ‘anti-Christ’ who will endeaveiur the weak in terms of faith with a series of dazzling tricks which he will perform. Jesus will be aided by a person who will cone called imam mehdi who will be born into thus world under his real name that will be Muhammad. This is the future that will occur." That is the coolest fucking doomsday scenario I have ever heard. It would be like the ass kicking-est Godzilla movie EVER! A cyclops! Muhammad! All it needs is Bruce Willis. “Before this doomsday there will be the returning of Jesus to fight and defeat the one eyed ‘anti-Christ’ who will endeaveiur the weak in terms of faith with a series of dazzling tricks which he will perform. Jesus will be aided by a person who will cone called imam mehdi who will be born into thus world under his real name that will be Muhammad. This is the future that will occur.”

That is the coolest fucking doomsday scenario I have ever heard. It would be like the ass kicking-est Godzilla movie EVER! A cyclops! Muhammad! All it needs is Bruce Willis.

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