Why I Left Atheist Nexus
This article does not display my current opinions on the subject in hand, and has only been kept up for archive purposes. For my true opinions and explanations, please read this article.
Amongst all the trouble the site suffered during its conception I didn’t think it could get any worse. Power was transferred from the relatively new atheist “Thor” to Brother Richard, an atheist blogger. Brother Richard asked for volunteers for web design, lawyers, graphic designers, representatives, moderators, and a host of other roles. He also asked for “donators” since the site wasn’t going to pay for itself. I remain slightly skeptical of this part. The site is hosted on Ning.com, a free social networking engine that expects high server usage, so where exactly does Richard need the money? The issue of lawyers seems a little strange as well, seeing as the site isn’t corporate and is in fact governed by Ning.com (who I assume have lawyers).
I was recently invited by vjack to join his new group on Atheist Nexus; a group dedicated to stamping down on atheist discrimination. It’s a great idea, and I support it even if I have now left Atheist Nexus. I suggest anyone still on the site joins the group straight away.
Once I got the email inviting me to join the group, I went straight to Atheist Nexus and did indeed join it. However, I noticed a link at the top of the page saying something about “Phase 1″ of fund raising. Intrigued, I went to the page and read.
Brother Richard starts by commenting on the wonderful transformation the site has gone, becoming one of the fastest growing atheist sites on the web. He also tells how he recently sold his business and is in a state of “semi-retirement”. He wants to spend the rest of the year (which he claims does not need that much income) helping with the site. However, he states:
Of course, it is our hope that the site will continue to grow and provide a comfortable income for our family and the staff that has been working with us, but only time will tell.
What? Excuse me? Since when did Atheist Nexus, a free site, hosted by a free organisation (Ning) for FREE become a platform for earning money? So now we see the corporate nature of Brother Richards ideas. Instead of simply relying on volunteers he decides to earn some money for doing what most people would call a “hobby”. The site doesn’t need that much tending. All the admin is done by Ning, as are the server upgrades and anything else that might take time. What was wrong with keeping volunteers to do the work? I’d already gladly volunteered to help redesign and possibly remake the entire site (FOR FREE) but I never got a response.
Anyway, Brother Richard laid out his donation plans:
|
Phase 1 (July - December 2008) |
|||
| Target Goal | $12,500.00 | ||
| Est. Taxes (25%) | $3,125.00 | ||
| Est. PayPal Fees (5%) | $625.00 | ||
| Adjusted Net | $8,750.00 | ||
| Expenses | |||
| Usage Fees (July - Dec) | $256.80 | ||
| Transfer/Domain/PrivacyFees(4sites) | $76.72 | ||
| Internet Fees | $390.00 | ||
| Software Upgrades | $700.00 | ||
| Legal Fees | $1,000.00 | ||
| Salaries ($1000 x 6 mnths) | $6,000.00 | ||
| Promotions & Printing | $300.00 | ||
| Total Expenses | $8,723.52 | ||
| Balance | $26.48 | ||
That’s right, somehow Brother Richard reckons a small social network (comparitively) for atheists, that has free membership and is hosted on a free platform, is worth $12,500 every 6 months. Firstly I see no need for the taxes to be taken away. Couldn’t this entire organisation just keep itself tax-exempt like most charities? $3,125 seems a lot to waste. Secondly, what exactly do the paypal fees cover? The last time I checked, PayPal only charges for transfers less than $100, and we are dealing with over $12,000 here. I can’t see how any charges could be put in place. Of course, I could very well be wrong, but I have been using PayPal for years and have never occured any such charges.
Moving on to usage fees. Exactly what usage fees is he talking about? Ning is a free platform, are they now paying Ning for priveliged access? If so, it isn’t made clear anywhere on this donations page, and the word “usage” is a very vague term. I’d assume it were server fees, but since when did Atheist Nexus get a server of its own? This might be easily explained by someone, but it isn’t made clear to me currently.
$76.72 goes towards domain costs, which include tranferring, and adding privacy onto the domain. I don’t know where he registered the domain, but he got scammed if he thinks it costs that much to do a simple transfer and get privacy options. In fact, some registrars automatically give you privacy for free. For a 6 month figure (domains usually renewable every 1 year) it is ludicrous.
Internet fees? What internet fees? Are we talking again about the server, or are we more personal now? To me, “internet fees” means the amount you pay your ISP for internet access. So to me, this looks like Brother Richard is trying to get his entire internet paid for by other people. Again, apologies if I am wrong about this, but I can’t see any other definition for internet fees that doesn’t involve a personal connection. I’m not willing to donate any money to people who are just using it for their own luxury benefit.
What are these software upgrades? Are you moving the site to a new social networking engine? Or are you upgradings your PC from XP to Vista? What software are you talking about? Also, if you are moving to a new engine, why not use something free and open source? There are plenty out there. $700 seems a bit much for any software upgrades I can imagine.
$1,000 for “legal fees”, but I fail to see the need for any lawyers. Unless you are planning to charge some people for a service, or you forsee yourself breaking the law in the future because you decide to rip content off someone else (Facebook just sued another social networking site for ripping their content). More explanation is needed here.
Salaries. This is what completely confuses me; the site is run by volunteers, it is small, it doesn’t need much looking after. It could be run successfully by a small team as a hobby, so how can you justify $6,000 salaries? It seems to me like Brother Richard will be getting all of this, seeing as he is the only volunteer I know off without a job. He says he is in “semi-retirement” which suggested to me that he had enough savings to live his life quite happily without much work. If he didn’t have enough savings, then he was a fool to sell his 16 year old business and then decide to embark on the challenge of looking after a social networking site. A social networking site like this does not need a paid staff. It needs a dedicated group of volunteers (which it already has). To designate half the donations to profit the man who has been put in charge is ridiculous.
$300 for promotions and printing. Finally we have a payment that is self explanatory and actually makes sense. This is the only payment I agree with on the list. Every site needs promotion, and although Atheist Nexus has spread pretty far by word of mouth (or word of blog), no harm can come of spending a small amount on advertising.
So now you see why I left Atheist Nexus. I can no longer support a group that asks for donations and yet does not explain the need for donations. I am sorry if this seems a little untrustworthy, but I am a skeptic by nature, and always will be. In my experience on the web, it doesn’t take much to run large groups like this, especially if you are using a free platform. The fact that this fund raising is labelled as “Phase 1″ also adds to my skepticism. Are we expected to donate this much every 6 months? What is to stop the amount next time from being higher? In fact, the higher the bar raises, the more people will likely donate because they don’t want to see their beloved site go down, and the money will come rolling in.
I hope I am wrong about all of this, and Brother Richard has explanations for all his donation requests, but I cannot see how he can reason out of quite a few of them. In light of this, development of a truly free social networking site for atheists will begin in the next few weeks. It will be based on an open source product, and the only donations we will ask for will be to keep the server costs down. The entire team will be made up of volunteers.
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A great deal to think about here. I was also puzzled to see this list of expenses and the quote you provided which does seem to suggest that Brother Richard is hoping to make money from this site. I really hope that is not the case.
I have been heavily promoting the site, and I would like to donate as well. However, for many of the same issues you have raised here, I will not do so until this is clarified.
vjack
2 Aug 08 at 7:36 pm (GMT)
Well, nothing technically wrong with making money from the site if it’s providing value. The internet has created a somewhat unrealistic expectation that everything should be free, but if someone is going to spend significant time and effort to create something of value to others, no reason why they shouldn’t be compensated for it. It is asking a lot, though, to expect people to contribute with no established history of trust & credibility. Maybe it would be better to begin providing exceptional value first, then begin to ask for contributions, and bootstrap from there.
kevin
2 Aug 08 at 8:59 pm (GMT)
kevin,
No there isn’t anything wrong with making money from a website, especially if it is providing some kind of service. However, it seems to me that a lot of money is going towards unnecessary costs. I cannot see how software / internet fees could possibly be that high, or why they could not simply become a tax exempt charity.
On the matter of salaries, what exactly are people being paid for? If it is development, then that is fine, but I have not seen any evidence that the service is moving off Ning.com, so the development is going to be non-existent. Administration isn’t going to be a big problem either, because the social networking site runs itself very well. People post in forums, they join groups. I cannot fathom what Richard could possibly use $6,000 on other than paying himself a lot of money for sitting at home on the internet.
In my opinion, if you are going to run a simple site like this (and it really is quite simple) then you should get a team of people who have full time jobs. They will be able to do this in their free time as volunteers and won’t have to demand money for their time.
Another potential problem with the salary issue is who gets it. Richard will have a portion, but who else? What if a person chosen for the moderation team spends hours on the site every day? Surely they should get some of the money? You will find a large number of people wanting pay because they have contributed in some way to the site. The whole issue would get way out of control very fast. Money tends to have that effect on people.
Adrian Hayter
2 Aug 08 at 9:10 pm (GMT)
Adrian, I agree with what you’re saying, I’m just looking at it from a slightly different perspective. When you buy any product or service, the determining factor in whether you’re willing to spend money is not the costs that went into producing it, but rather the value that you think you’ll get out of it. So what I’m saying is that if people feel that Atheist Nexus provides that kind of value, they should be willing to make a donation, or maybe even pay for a members only section, or something like that. But given the prevalence of free forums/blogs/social networking sites, I think they’re going to have to provide quite a bit of value to convince people to give money. I agree with your general sentiment, that for what they’re doing, it should be possible to do mostly for free, and the largest investment is an investment of time. Sort of like saying I need donations to run a blog. Sure, if I want the blog to support me so I can quit my job, but otherwise, blogging is free.
kevin
2 Aug 08 at 9:47 pm (GMT)
I will attempt to give some quick point by point answers:
1. Adrian I am sorry you felt ignored. However, you came across very rude and threatening in all of your communication with us. You implied that if we did not allow you to grace us with your abilities, you would just start your own site (which you again stated in your blog post). You are free to do what you want, but I don’t want to work with someone with this attitude. I don’t care if you are the best programmer in the world. Also, we do have several good programmers who have begun to help us out and we will continue to use more of them. Many of them also did not like how you came across.
2. Yes it is “free” to start a site with Ning. However, to use it the way we do costs money. The services we have with them cost $42.80 a month. This includes using our own domain name, removing the Ning Promotions, controlling the ads, and the extra bandwidth we may need for our growing numbers. This total is $256.80.
3. I never said that we will need 12,500 for every six months. I don’t know what the future holds. Our budget is simply an estimate for the first six.
4. The $1000 for legal fees is to set up the non-profit or whatever structure is deemed best for Atheist Nexus. We haven’t collected enough money for me to hire lawyers yet. It is my goal to get this structure in place by the start of end of the year. It should be noted; that I have been made aware of some legal issues that might affect a non-profit. These include the various political groups and forum discussions, and items of a sexual and discriminatory nature.
5. PayPal takes between 4 and 5% of all donations given to us. There is also a 25 or 30 cent charge for each transaction as well. We don’t get charged for transfers out.
6. The taxes (and the entire budget) are simply an estimate. Depending on how much money we raise and what final legal structure we assume with cause the amount to vary greatly. The most it could be is 25%. So I decided to err on the side of caution.
7. There are now 4 sites associated with Atheist Nexus (.com, .org, .net, and another that has not been revealed yet). All of these have to be registered (or transferred if they are in Kym’s name). I am also paying for hosting and privacy fees. This is $19.18 each for a total of $76.72. These amounts are also to prepay for the entire year not just 6 months.
8. I did not have DSL or Cable service in my home. I have installed it now due to continually being online and the slowness of my many uploads. Like all businesses, this is a deductible expense. After the taxes and the various ridiculous government fees, it comes to about $65.00 a month for a total of $390.00.
9. When I wrote the budget I had planned on spending about $700 in immediate upgrades. Since then, I was able to work a deal on of the software companies who design specifically for Ning sites. I was able to purchase over $700 of products for half price. I would love to give them credit, but I do not know if they want their name to be published. So this category gives us a little wiggle room. Again, this budget is an estimate.
10. I refuse to apologize for planning on paying myself a measly $1000 a month. I have put between 60 and 80 hours a week into this “hobby.” This comes to about $3.00 an hour. I do hope the site will grow to the point of paying a decent salary to me and the other two people who are giving many hours to Atheist Nexus, but we are a far from being able to do that. I also will not apologize for my business skills that have enabled me to work for so little money. I did not sell my business to run Atheist Nexus, but doing so has put me in the position of being able to do so.
This deals with the questions brought up. We have a lot of things that are in the works for Atheist Nexus. I can’t share them now, but they will all cost money. In the real world that’s the way it works. I am amazed how on one hand, people complain that Atheist Nexus is not as good as Facebook, but with the other, demand that it be free of ads and run only by volunteers. Sorry, we can’t have it both ways.
I want Atheist Nexus to remain free for everyone. I do not want to have levels of membership with various levels of content access. However, we may have to go that route. No matter which way we go, we will never pressure anyone to pay anything for this site. I want everyone to benefit from the site, but if the fact that we try to raise money to keep it free, is enough to cause someone to leave, I wish them well. We may not be for everyone.
We continually talking about needing to unite and make a difference. The only reason religious organizations are able to get so much done is because they put aside petty differences and put their money where the mouths are. Forget about Atheist Nexus for a minute, and think how powerful we could be if we all pledged to give 10% of our money to atheist causes. We could change the world. We would be more powerful than the religious institutions.
Brother Richard
Brother Richard
2 Aug 08 at 10:57 pm (GMT)
Thanks Richard,
I really don’t understand why everyone is so aggo over this site. Every time someone’s motivations come into question, there is an immediate drama-gasm. In the future, let’s just go ahead and ask and then wait for an answer. Meanwhile, let’s have a margarita and a nap.
–moJoe
moJoe
2 Aug 08 at 11:51 pm (GMT)
Richard,
Thanks for the explanation, at least I understand the motives and reasons for the amounts you have put down. Now I might have to explain something.
If I came across as rude or threatening then it was not intentional. At the time, I had already been considering making an atheist social networking site, so to have one suddenly pop up ready made was surprising. I refrained from mentioning my plans until research into atheist nexus was done and it was found that the entire thing was built on Ning, a closed source engine.
It was at this point that I “floated” the idea about developing one from scratch, or at least making one from open source software. Never did I imply that if I didn’t get work with atheist nexus I would make my own site. I had already planned to make my own site, but I offered to help with Atheist Nexus if they decided they wanted to move to open source software. Even if you decided to stay with Ning, I wasn’t going to just give up on Nexus. I had already stated that I could help with design problems that caused the slow scrolling in some browsers.
My “attitude” as you put it, was grossly misread by it seems more than just yourself. However, the attitude of creating a “fork” of a good idea is common on the internet. In fact it is how things like Facebook get started, feeding off the mistakes make by MySpace and Bebo, which came before them. I simply saw the faults of the Ning.com interface (as did many others) and decided if I could not help fix the problems, what would be the harm in creating the competition I had planned before Nexus came along?
As for point 8, I still object to you taking money pay for luxuries like fast internet. I don’t think many people see Atheist Nexus as a “business venture” like you do, and I suspect most people see you as the guy who was put in charge of the site, not a person they voted to be head of a company.
This is where you and I (and my team of devs) disagree quite a bit. Nobody expects Atheist Nexus to be as good as facebook, who have a paid team of expert developers, but it can be free of adverts and run by volunteers if it used free Open Source software.
I still offer my services if you come to agree that using open source software instead of paying large fees is a better idea. I never meant to offend you in any way, I just wanted to outline your lack of detail in the entire donation list, and possibly give you some ideas of saving the money.
I wish you the very best with Atheist Nexus, and I really do hope it works out and you can develop new features etc. There is nothing wrong with a little competition though, and I hope both sites can offer different things in the long run.
Adrian Hayter
3 Aug 08 at 12:10 am (GMT)
I think that Kevin is correct to suggest that Atheist Nexus should have been up and running for a couple months or so before soliciting donations. I also wish they had obtained non-profit status and been much clearer about outlining the various plans for the site that are often described somewhat mysteriously. Together, these steps would have had the advantages of building trust, demonstrating value, and encouraging donations via tax deductions. Telling the user base about “big things” in store for the site means little when I suspect that most users are perfectly content for the site to remain largely as is (at least I know I am).
Having said all that, I suspect that this is a learning experience for most of those involved. I’m basically satisfied and see no reason to get bogged down in what could have been different. I completely understand why donations are being sought.
My only suggestion for Richard at this point would be to slow down and not try to turn the site into something else overnight. I don’t think most users are looking for a radically different experience. By rolling out small improvements gradually, expenses would be minimized and the benefit to users likely more appreciated.
vjack
3 Aug 08 at 2:43 am (GMT)
With regard to taxes, many companies that operate as non-profits actually file taxes as a for profit corporation. The tax code is fairly tricky and for many people the added expense of specialist accountants isn’t worth the effort. With this small dollar amount it would probably be break even. Paypal takes a percentage of all payments. The buyer doesn’t see it, but the person receiving the money does not receive the full amount. So for example, if you send $100 the recipient only gets $95. The software upgrades is possibly for labor. Most hosting providers will do custom installs for a per hour fee. I’m not too surprised to see that on the list. Legal fees are not a surprise either. Maybe you are drafting a new Terms of Service or have questions about your liability if a member of your community libels/slanders someone. Most lawyers I know charge a minimum of $300/hr. Also keep in mind most companies talk to a lawyer at least once per year so finding legal fees budgeted for on any company is not much of a surprise. Salaries might be incorrectly categorized. Contract labor might be more appropriate. Any new social network is going to require development. Depending on your volunteers you might be able to get said labor out of them. Free labor doesn’t work fast or on demand so it makes sense to have some funds budgeted for contractors, even if you never use them. The same goes for legal fees. It’s better to budget for the expense and not have to use the money than to be surprised.
Quan Tranh
3 Aug 08 at 7:59 am (GMT)
Well, my experience with the assorted versions of Atheist Nexus has been vastly different.
First, it was a stated non-profit social site for atheists set up on the free Ning platform by an intentionally anonymous person only known as Thor and two mysterious assistant atheists with all sorts of ambiguous claims regarding the intent and potential for the site.
After some discussion about the lack of transparency and addressing many of the claims made in the original “About Us” column, it was finally disclosed that Thor was a very recent deconvert from Christianity named Kym Membe, who suddenly didn’t want the attention fostered upon one who initiated a social website for atheists on the World Wide Web.
In the ensuing threads (now all gone) there were the standard emotional pleas, shooting of the messenger, attacking and demeaning the inquiry and then ultimately the claim of victim hood resulting in the martyrdom of Kym as he gave up full control of Atheist Nexus to “Brother Richard”.
Vjack has linked to his own participation in the inquiry which did address many of the issues that were diligently and reasonably raised given the situation. In the interim, I personally contacted the IRS to check on the non-profit status and found that claim to be false.
In the end, I lauded the effort undertaken by vjack, pzmyers and others enlisted to give their assessments of the situation. I’ve personally exchanged emails with Brother Richard on several occasions offering him advice and, quite frankly, exchanging open and honest criticism of how the entire incident was being handled.
Since that time, and it has only been a week or so, there has been an evolution of Atheist Nexus under this new command with some additional vague claims of potential and of very exciting things to come for atheists.
These sales pitches, both under Kym and now Richard are very grandiose and well founded in hyperbole.
The only difference between the two approaches that I can see is the explicit final admission that this originally free non-profit social site for atheists, the unique one of a kind organization to help the cause of open minded atheists everywhere, etc., etc. is actually to supplement the retirement income of Richard, an entrepreneur and, that’s right – two other anonymous partners.
There is now a banner link for donations which Richard is unapologetic about promoting and flatly stating as the new business model for his atheist brand.
Furthermore, we have learned that the forum is not a democracy and that it is supported on the Ning platform which has no archiving feature so that once a member is banned,or by their own hand takes steps through Ning to remove themselves as members, every thread they started and every sub-comment posted…is deleted permanently.
All discussion and exchanges and expression of friendship, concepts and ideas are dumped into the memory hole.
Knowing this, I did not take any steps to remove my registration at Atheist Nexus and was actively banned from the site by the operator who knew the results of such an action.
This potential exists for every single member and every single thread carefully crafted and fueled by their time and effort.
In my view, that is an abhorrent standard to promote anywhere.
So, in conclusion, let the buyer beware and please consider all of your options.
There are plenty of options for atheists on the internet both free, non-profit, donation based and fee based. There are no pastors, priests or deacons of atheism and we all make our own music wherever we go.
Y’all take care, keep your reason and rational approach to life and I’ll see you here or at IIDB.org, TalkRational.org…or, well, anywhere one can go to offer one perspective in the open marketplace of ideas.
Steve
ronin
3 Aug 08 at 2:36 pm (GMT)
ronin,
Many thanks for your comment. All the faults you have outlined will be noted and made top priorities in the new site. If you would like a role in the development of the new site (even if you just want to beta test and help with ideas) then please contact me.
Adrian Hayter
3 Aug 08 at 2:49 pm (GMT)
Wow, $1k a month… you can get almost any highly skilled and highly experienced programmer in the Philippines to work on a customized site from the ground up for that rate… Heck, if you go for a little less experience, you can have yourself a whole team.
Ramon
3 Aug 08 at 4:32 pm (GMT)
It seems strange that one of the worst instigators in the Atheist Nexus fiasco was the Mississippi Policeman from Gulfport using the username Ronin. He was like a pitbull and relentlessly in thread after thread attacked the founder with questions of his ethical reasons for starting the group. The guy is way too harsh and uses his police training to intimidate the membership. I dropped my membership as soon as I realized he would use the same tactics toward any one who disagreed with him.
Grumpy Joe
3 Aug 08 at 10:01 pm (GMT)
Actually that is not an accurate reflection of events in my view, Grumpy Joe.
There is no doubting that the inquiry was necessary, ultimately beneficial in finally getting answers and needed addressing.
As an aside, I personally contacted you in order to find out more about your feelings so that we could find some common ground.
The invitation to meet me and my family at my home still stands, by the way…so please, if you are ever down here in Biloxi, let me know via email (humanistfamilies@hotmail.com) and I’ll direct you here for a meal and great discussion.
You elected to leave Atheist Nexus for your own reasons and so none of the threads and messages can ever be retrieved now (due to the already stated Ning limitations).
No one was “attacked”, I was not a “pitbull”, I was not “harsh” and in no way was it my intent to intimidate anyone. How could this even occur over the internet anyway? I asked questions, that is all.
There were many times I agreed with Brother Richard and Kym on some of the important issues which were raised. On key issues we certainly disagreed but that is a wonderful thing in my view. I would not ever want all other folks to think *exactly* like me.
It is true that I am a police officer and I am not ashamed of that in the least.
I am also an atheist and a community activist who has dedicated my life to honesty, integrity and the protection of others.
The facts remain that Kym did not have a non-profit status despite his claims otherwise in very lengthy and dodgy threads. In my experience, that plea to governmental authority is common among Nigerian scams, phishing and pigeon drop cons.
I did not concern myself with whether or not he was Christian…others made that a core issue, not me.
My stated intent was to insure transparency, organizational structure and a clear statement of plans. Atheists should not ever be expected to accept claims on faith.
In any event, it has been a long road and here we are.
I understand that you may disagree, but I still count you as a good person with honest concerns of your own.
Take care, Grumpy Joe, stay safe.
Steve
ronin
4 Aug 08 at 1:43 am (GMT)
Adrian,
First I would like to say that I believe that everyone is entitled to voice their own opinion whether I agree with said opinion or not. I think that what you did by posting a PRIVATE document in the public realm was unprofessional, spiteful and down right childish. I sincerely hope you don’t destroy the trust of the people that will visit your site the way you did A|N. There was no reason not to ask Richard privately or on A|N about your concerns as to where the money was going. He has been up front with everyone who asks about anything. By you posting them here it brings your true motives to light in that you had no intention of trying to be part of A|N other than to get people for your own site. I wish you well in your future endeavors and hope that by everyone’s responses you have learned to do a little research before running your mouth about things you know nothing about.
Ronin,
I am also beginning to question your motives. You have continuously brought up the IRS thing, even after it was already resolved. Even bringing it up here to cause more confusion to those that have no idea of what actually happened.
Didn’t you read any of the earlier posts here? The Ning platform is free, but A|N uses a lot more than the free platform.
Intentionally anonymous person? Thor wasn’t intentionally anonymous or you would have not been able to crucify him the way you did.
“After some discussion” and “it was finally disclosed”, again misrepresenting things. You sound like those Christian Apologists that can talk their way around everything.
Unfortunately for Kym, he didn’t know the atheist community has a large number of nit pickers that when in mass can make for an unpleasant experience. I don’t blame Kym for backing down in the face of that and I can only hope that it didn’t change his opinion of the rest of us.
Again, attacking Richard as if he had any say in what platform was used to build A|N. “In the ensuing threads (now all gone) there were the standard emotional pleas, shooting of the messenger, attacking and demeaning the inquiry and then ultimately the claim of victim hood resulting in the martyrdom of Kym as he gave up full control of Atheist Nexus to “Brother Richard”.” You really were an Apologist weren’t you or you’re completely delusional looking for a conspiracy theory in everything.
Here, another thing you are being dishonest about, “I personally contacted the IRS to check on the non-profit status and found that claim to be false” In your original reply on A|N you openly stated that the form had only just been sent and that it would be several weeks before the claim was processed. That isn’t saying it was false at all, why lie about it here? It has also been made clear that Kym was in the process of filling for non-profit status and shouldn’t have said it already was.
“sales pitches”, wow, you still don’t see the big picture at all. How can you say “well founded in hyperbole” when a lot of it hasn’t even come to pass yet, what are you basing that on? Surely you’re not suggesting that the site has not undergone any changes since Richard took over?
Again, you’re trying to debase Richard by accusing him of lying about the original purpose of the site. How many times do you need to be told that Richard had no say in how, when, where or why A|N was made? He agreed to take over because this is a cause he believes in and wants to support. I don’t understand why you think he should be doing this for free. You get paid to do a public service why can’t he? I know he has put almost 80 hours a week into A/N.
I would love to know what gives you the idea that there are “anonymous partners.” There are no partners. I am one of the people who are volunteering for the site. I have never tried to remain anonymous. I am on the boards quite often as well as the other person that has been working with us. I have put more than 60 hours a week into A|N since the day I became a member. Most of it behind the scenes. I believe that atheists want and need a community. A|N is providing a start to that and it is continually growing and getting better. We aren’t just sitting here twiddling our thumbs waiting on money, we didn’t agree to do this because of money. Frankly, I am shocked that you would suggest such a thing. It makes me question your motives even more. I am astounded by your lack of depth in understanding what is happening at Atheist Nexus. I guess it has a lot to do with the fact that you were only on the site in the beginning, complaining and causing trouble. Then you were gone for over a week and came back to complain more and plug your “On Faith” article. You did not contribute to the community at all.
I watched your videos and was saddened to read about what you and your family went through with the hurricane. I guess that’s why I am surprised by how you handled yourself on A|N. By your profile and posts on A|N as well as on IIDB you seemed like a rational guy. Which leads me to believe that you had ulterior motives. I only wish I knew what they were because it is clear that you were not interested in community unless it was one that YOU controlled.
I am also a little shocked that you have such a problem with posts being deleted as if you were depending on the Internet to save them for you. Don’t you keep the originals to your posts? If they are so precious to you, I mean? Were you only able to have those friends and connections on A|N? Were they not worth connecting with outside of it? “In my view, that is an abhorrent standard to promote anywhere.” I hope you extend that hate to all Ning sites then.
Stephanie
4 Aug 08 at 3:28 am (GMT)
I have already addressed this issue with Brother Richard. The posting of a “private” document was a misunderstanding, but as I pointed out to him, the site is free to register for, and so the document is already in the accessible public domain. I only used the document to voice my concerns about certain items on the list, all of which have now been resolved with Brother Richard privately (I will be writing a short explanation post later to clarify everything)
Lack of response to previous correspondence gave me the wrong impression that I was being deliberately ignored, and that I wouldn’t get any form of response this time. The issue of donations was a public one anyway, and Brother Richard answered it here publicly.
My true motives were to build a social networking site from the start. When Atheist Nexus came along I decided I would try and help out there instead of carrying out my original plan. However, with the various scandals the site went through, and my entire attitude being misread by some of the developers, I decided that I would leave and go back to my original plan. If you think that I just joined Nexus in order to criticize and cause a “rebellion” then you are gravely mistaken.
Thanks for the well wishes, although I don’t believe for a second you actually mean them. I did do the research thank you very much. I know how Ning works and how much certain things on the internet cost. When I found discrepancies I highlighted them, and they all got explained very well by Brother Richard. The main issues were that of “internet fees” (which I still disagree with to a certain degree) and the salaries, but Brother Richard has ensured me that these salaries go towards arranging events and paying helpers, which I fully support.
Brother Richard and I have had numerous email correspondences since I posted this article, and the issues have been resolved. Since you seem intent on attacking my character I can only assume he hasn’t made the current situation between us general knowledge yet, but we have agreed to each clear up the bad images that were portrayed of each other.
Adrian Hayter
4 Aug 08 at 6:25 am (GMT)
Frankly, those who seem determined to stick their heads in the sand bother me more than those asking tough questions. I am an atheist, but I was a skeptic first. To see dissent and skepticism discouraged in a community of atheists is surprising. The investigation was the right thing to do, and people should keep asking questions until they have been answered to everyone’s satisfaction. At some point, we will each have to decide for ourselves whether to stick with Atheist Nexus. Whether you decide to stay or to leave, I would hope that you would have sufficient information to make the decision that is right for you.
vjack
4 Aug 08 at 1:37 pm (GMT)
Wow, what a drama. I guess that that what happens when you try to build a community out of skeptics. It’s almost as difficult trying to build a community out of conspiracy theorists!
And it perhaps doesn’t help much that Richard calls himself “Brother”. It just doesn’t seem to have the right sound, specially if he is the big boss of an atheist community.
I’ve never been in the nexus and I wish all people in there good luck, and good discussions!
Luis Dias
4 Aug 08 at 4:39 pm (GMT)
Adrian,
Yes I am aware that you and Richard have cleared things up. Does that mean that I am not supposed to let my opinion be known? Am I supposed to shut up because you don’t want your dirty laundry exposed? You didn’t do this for Richard, so don’t expect it. My opinions are my opinions. People in glass houses should not throw stones. And could it be that I saw Google Ads on your account? I would like a detailed break down of where that money is going to and what your intentions are for it. You can send it to me privately and then I will post it for the world to see. Also, don’t use the excuse of being ignored with your previous emails. I have the email records sent to you saying that we were getting the people together and would get back to you. Also Db0 corresponded with you that Richard had hundreds of emails to sort through and he would get back to you.
Vjack,
Skepticism is a shared trait to most freethinkers, myself included. I never had a problem with the questions and inquiry. I was never under the impression that anyone did. It was the way in which it was handled that bothered me. There is a fine line between skepticism and cynicism. Inquiries were not made but accusations. Why are you not upset with people like Adrian, who write blog posts and pass judgments before they even get the answers? Even if now Adrian is happy that things are okay, he has already done his damage. Concerning Ronin, Richard went out of his way to email him. He even offered to speak to him privately. It was Ronin who publicly stated that he was withdrawing his membership to the site. This resulted in his removal from our system. This was his choice. If you check with non-profit atheist organizations like FFRF, CFI, The Richard Dawkins Foundation, etc, you will see that they will not give any information concerning budgets unless someone is a paying member. If you check with private atheist organizations like Infidel Guy, Rational Response Squad, etc, you will see that they do not and are not obligated to give any financial info at all.
Come on guys, we have much bigger things to do than to argue about these silly things. I don’t want to waste all of our time going back and forth with this mess. Let’s just agree that we disagree and go on with fighting the bigger fight. This is it for me. I have said my peace.
Stephanie
4 Aug 08 at 7:41 pm (GMT)
Not at all, I was just pointing out that your initial comment contained numerous falsehoods which had already been explained.
The relatively small amount made from adverts on this goes towards the cost of the server, and it barely covers that.
Db0 corresponded with me, but Richard nor anyone on the dev team did. Nobody got back to me, so I didn’t think contacting people again would get any response either.
I apologize for the tone of this article. In hindsight it should have been worded a lot better, but the point I was trying to make was that $12,000 is a lot to ask for without properly explaining what it is for.
The only “accusation” I see (after reading through the article again) is the one at the very beginning, in which I say Brother Richard is trying to earn money for himself. However it was hardly an unfounded accusation, as I backed it up with a direct quotation.
Any other accusatory statements I made were clearly suggestions followed by “but I could be wrong” or “this should be clearly explained”.
I suspect he is not upset because he is a rational individual who knows that I didn’t mean to cause this much havoc, and I only wrote the article to outline my problems with the way the donations were asked for. Read the article again, I clearly asked for explanations several times.
Adrian Hayter
4 Aug 08 at 8:19 pm (GMT)
[...] new here, you may want to subscribe to my RSS feed. Thanks for visiting!I previously wrote about why I left Atheist Nexus, for reasons that I believed saw the site turning into a more commercial business than a friendly [...]
The Atheist Nexus Explanation - The Atheist Blogger
5 Aug 08 at 2:13 am (GMT)
[...] think Vjack put it best: Frankly, those who seem determined to stick their heads in the sand bother me more than those [...]
Atheist Nexus Brouhaha » A Division by Zer0
5 Aug 08 at 10:06 am (GMT)
I’m troubled by the two issues that Ronin raises here:
“Furthermore, we have learned that the forum is not a democracy and that it is supported on the Ning platform which has no archiving feature so that once a member is banned,or by their own hand takes steps through Ning to remove themselves as members, every thread they started and every sub-comment posted…is deleted permanently.
All discussion and exchanges and expression of friendship, concepts and ideas are dumped into the memory hole.
Knowing this, I did not take any steps to remove my registration at Atheist Nexus and was actively banned from the site by the operator who knew the results of such an action.
This potential exists for every single member and every single thread carefully crafted and fueled by their time and effort.
In my view, that is an abhorrent standard to promote anywhere.”
Stella
5 Aug 08 at 2:07 pm (GMT)
Stephanie,
The IRS angle was brought up again here at Adrian’s place *only* in response to Grumpy Joe.
It is very important to note that I have also already accepted the explanation once it was resolved.
That is a very important nuance that you have missed.
The hyperbole is unnecessary to make your point and no one was crucified at Atheist Nexus no matter how hard people try to sell and belabor the claim.
Again, it was obvious that there was a problem, Stephanie…there is no doubt that it needed resolution.
No conspiracy theory was offered, simply concerns and those have been addressed.
I was never dishonest about anything.
I did call the IRS (twice as a matter of fact) and they were unable to locate any further request by Atheist Nexus to obtain non-profit status.
They (and I) did offer the caveat that it may have been due to a record keeping process, however, since that time it has been disclosed that in spite of Kym’s claims that there was IRS status…there was not.
Any reasonable observer would recognize that was a problem and for legitimate reasons I have already stated.
What is dubious is your quote-mining something out of the context of time and presenting it here as if it were fact, when it is not.
The sales pitches have morphed over time and that is not necessarily a bad thing in marketing concepts. By the way, I was actively *banned* from Atheist Nexus and I had purposely left my membership open because of the Ning feature that dumps heartfelt time and effort otherwise.
As I already said, there are plenty of places for atheists to find community. My view *now* is that there has been far too much angst and questionable practices for me to remain interested in Brother Richard’s brand.
You may disagree and that is a good thing.
Thanks for your appreciation of the On Faith article by the way.
Such efforts have been a tireless effort of mine.
The way I handled my self on Atheist Nexus is consistent with how I live my life in general. I am first skeptical and then I inquire and investigate further to resolve certain issues. It isn’t a perfect method, but it is an honest one I assure you, Stephanie.
If it is any consolation, I have also been critical of Rational Responders and other sites (not necessarily atheist centered) for many of the same reasons.
I am very glad you have found a home and it is my hope that you are diligent, caring and compassionate about all that you do there.
My personal best of respect to you!
Take care,
Steve
ronin
5 Aug 08 at 3:24 pm (GMT)
Lingering Controversy at Atheist Nexus…
I have been heavily promoting Atheist Nexus here since it first appeared. This may lead you to believe that I am biased in its favor and inclined to ignore the controversy which has surrounded it from the beginning and recent developments which have …..
Atheist Revolution
6 Aug 08 at 11:34 am (GMT)
great, usefull 0_0
funnygirl
7 Aug 08 at 2:07 pm (GMT)
Only useful if you include the follow-up post where Adrian says he was wrong.
He is now a member of Atheist Nexus again. He really should state that in another article. Kinda not fair.
Alex
28 Aug 08 at 5:48 am (GMT)
Alex,
You mean this one?
http://atheistblogger.com/2008/08/05/the-atheist-nexus-explanation/
Adrian Hayter
28 Aug 08 at 9:03 am (GMT)
I’m ready to leave after 24 hours. Some dickhead Aussie started shit with me, so I fought back ten times harder. I actually like the Website, but every time I speak my mind, I get fucked with.
Chad
22 Sep 08 at 2:19 am (GMT)
[...] I love when people talk about donations and “internet fees”. [...]
Ivory Power » Blog Archive » Atheist opportunists
2 Oct 08 at 8:49 am (GMT)