Intelligence Squared – Is Atheism the New Fundamentalism?
For anyone living in England, there is a promising debate coming up at Wellington College, Crowthorne, Berkshire on the 29th November. Richard Dawkins and A C Grayling will be debating “Is atheism the new fundamentalism?” with Richard Harries (former Bishop of Oxford) and Charles Moore (former editor of the Daily Telegraph and The Spectator). The debate costs £15 to get into, and starts at 7pm.
If you are interested, you can buy tickets from the Intelligence Squared website.
I’m going with a few friends and members of AtheistForums.org (one of whom is coming from the Netherlands). We are all meeting at The Iron Duke pub at 5:30pm for drinks, and then there again after the debate for more! If anyone wants to meet there, please do! My contact number for the day is: 07828 698967.
I don’t know what the turnout for the debate will be, but if the online poll is anything to go by, there will be plenty of atheists and secularists present. I’ll be taking photos and blogging about the event for anyone who can’t attend, although I hope to see you there if you can make it.
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Christ who thought up the title?
I'm going to this, so I might see you (in the pub and/or at the debate).
It's likely to be a far gentler affair than the recent rout of the Catholics at Westminster Hall. Dawkins and Harries seem to be best buddies despite occupying opposite sides. I don't know about Charles Moore, but Anthony Grayling is hardly fundamentalist in his atheism. But that could make it a more challenging debate — being "militant" and "strident" in opposition to the motion would simply concede points to the other side.
Looking forward to it.
Ugh, it kills me that this is so far away across the water. How nice it must be to live in a country that encourages open debate, rather than shits all over it.
Anyway, have a great time. Look forward to viewing the pictures/blogs you post.
Well, whoever thought the title up obviously did it to get attention and it works! I guess it depends what you mean by ‘fundamental atheist’? I suppose some lunatic could start planting bombs at religious sites of all faiths. They certainly wouldn’t be willing to strap explosives to themselves, eh? I think, like all fundamentalists, they’d have to be mentally ill in some way. I just can’t imagine an atheist (who wasn’t a psychopath) being all that ‘fundamental’?
Can anyone help me with this one: "Robert, I know Christians have done evil as well! I'm a sinner Saved by grace! By the way it is impossible to be an atheist and be intellectually honest! You can be agnostic at best! In order to be an atheist you have to know everything there is to know! Since you and I do not Know everything there is to know, it is possible for God to exist in the area you do not know: BY DEFINITION AGNOSTIC AT BEST if you are intelectually honest!? I believe you are!!!!!" – Your help would be appreciated, Robert. P.s Sorry, I too am across the pond otherwise I would love to be there. I'm moving from Key West to Napa and can't wait – only 50 minutes from SanFran.
Robert,
You might start by explaining that atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. One can be an agnostic atheist, or an agnostic theist, or a gnostic atheist ("I know there are no gods"), or a gnostic theist ("I know my God exists"). Agnosticism is lack of knowledge, while atheism is lack of belief.
As for not knowing everything there is to know, I don't categorically know that leprechauns, fairies and unicorns don't exist somewhere in an area I don't know about. But I have beliefs about the existence or non-existence of these things, based on empirical evidence and logical reasoning.
Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion has a scale of knowledge of the existence of a god or gods, ranging from zero for absolute conviction that God exists, to seven for absolute conviction that God doesn't exist. He rates himself somewhere between six and seven, saying that though he can't categorically attest the non-existence of God, God's existence is extremely unlikely. That's good enough for me.
Paul, many thanks for the fast response. Adrian also sent an excellent reply and both will be a great help in replying to future questions concerning this topic. As I said to Adrian, I try to keep my responses short and to the the point so the more information I have the easier it will be. In America the Secular movement is gaining ground amongst the young and that's a good thing. Us Atheists still experience ignorance and abuse especially in the south and mid-west states. Thanks again for you help, Robert
First, he is correct that atheism cannot withstand intellectual honesty, but I doubt he could rationally articulate why. Second, the point he is making targets 'strong' atheism, the belief that God does not exist (a very easy target he probably picked intentionally). However, most atheists identify themselves with 'weak' or agnostic atheism, the absence of belief that God exists, so his point ultimately hits an uncompelling target. Strong atheism is indefensible, failing the test of reason at every turn, which is why very few atheists profess it. Weak atheism is indefensible too, but that is a much more complicated target to hit.
Can you? I'd be interested to hear it articulated because I'm of the opinion that my own atheism is derived with intellectual honesty.
I note that this statement (as with the other I quoted) is as yet an unsubstantiated assertion. (I hope this will be followed up, otherwise it might appear that the above comment is nothing more than drive-by trolling.)
Can I rationally articulate the indefensible weakness of atheism? Well of course I can. However, that was not the point of either Robert's question or my answer. It is an interesting issue but a tangential Red Herring to the one Robert inquired about. It seemed that Robert thought this fellow was attacking atheism. My response indicated that he was attacking only 'strong' atheism, probably on purpose because it's an easy target, and that 'weak' atheism can be targeted too but is a more complicated target. Now, even if I had never returned to respond to you, there is nothing in my answer to Robert that qualifies as "drive-by trolling" (given what the term means). As Adrian can attest, I am anything but a troll.
Indeed. Far from being a troll, Arcanus is possibly one of the most well-informed and rational Christians I have come across and I have clashed with him on many occasions. The only problem I have with his argument is that I can't get around the seemingly assumption-ridden "TAG". Whether that is a problem of TAG, or a problem of my understanding of TAG has yet to be seen. :P
Arcanus,
My reference to "drive-by trolling" was prompted by your unsubstantiated assertions concerning the "indefensibility" of atheism, but as you've replied to my comment I'm happy to accept that my suspicions (they were no more than that) were wrong.
Nevertheless I'd still be interested to hear you articulate the indefensibility of atheism, in particular that it "cannot withstand intellectual honesty". (If you feel it would be inappropriate to do so here, please post a link to a more appropriate place, perhaps even to somewhere you have already addressed this issue.)
Talk about bad timing!!! I used to live in Berkshire and get back there 2-3 times a year – and I'm back there on business that week – but I leave that Morning :( Could it be one of the many gods I don't believe in has intervened to make me miss this event that I would have loved to attend???? Probably not, but its a damn shame anyway…I'm sure it will be a great debate – Enjoy it!
Don't shout it from the rooftops / ivory towers of atheism, but we are almost definitely going to be live streaming this event from Wellington College. A few technical issues to iron out, but if it all comes together then you can watch this wherever you are with a broadband connection. Watch this space!
This is good news (if it pans out). I'm assuming this will apply to all the IQ2 debates? Will video be archived (and freely available) — or is that reserved for the DVDs for sale?
We're going to be trialing live streaming for free next Sunday (fingers crossed) and this may become a premium service if it takes off. When the new website goes live on Monday (again fingers crossed) our archive of video will be freely available too, in MP4 format, so demand for DVDs may plummet.
We're definitely live streaming this Sunday from 6.45pm at http://www.intelligencesquared.com/live. Please spread the word!