Praying For The Sick
I honestly didn’t want to cover this story, not because so many others had already done so, but because it literally chilled me to the bone, and I find myself sickened whenever I read it. However, Evan over at the Debunking Christianity blog wrote an investigative story on the subject, which I couldn’t ignore.
For those who are unaware of the story (which is probably a minority), I will give a brief description. 11 year old Madeline Kara Neumann (pictured above) died from diabetic ketoacidosis, a perfectly treatable condition, and one which the majority of people do not die from. I’d like to say that her illness was the primary cause of death, but sadly that is not the case. Madeline Neumann was murdered by her parents, who were so ignorant of the situation around them, they decided that the power of prayer, not medicine would save their daughter.
Madeline saw a doctor at age 3, and would not see another until her body was examined at the local hospital, a good few hours after she died. She had been off her medication for most of her life, but when her illness became too great, she fell unconscious and died. All the while her murderers refused to take her to hopsital, and in fact a 911 call that eventually alerted the hospital came from a relation outside the immediate family.
A ministry that were close to the family recently wrote this press release. In it, the spokesperson says:
We are not commanded in scripture to send people to the doctor but to meet their needs through prayer and faith. As anyone here in the ministry will tell you, we are not against doctors for those who have their faith there and never condemn or restrict them in any way. But we know that the best one to trust in for healing is Jesus Christ.
This level of ignorance and stupidity cannot continue. In an increasingly secular nation like the United Kingdom, such an excuse would have been rejected by every single court, and the parents would currently be facing a long prison sentence for murder through negligence. However what we find in the USA, is the other three children being returned to the parents as if nothing had happened. A prosecution is being set up by the police, but Wisconsin law dictates parents cannot be charged if they relied on prayer. Essentially, in the terms of Wisconsin courts, God failed, not the parents. One can only hope that they are charged with abuse or neglect relating to their failure to provide adequent medical attention to their child.
What further astounds me in the press release is this:
The next thing I heard from them was that they were being investigated, which is sad since authorities don’t investigate the people who put their trust in doctors whose family members die by the hundreds of thousands from medical mistakes every year, according the AMA’s own admission. We know that the doctors do the best they can with what they have and we do not condemn them. We would like the same consideration.
Yes, people die from medical mistakes, and perhaps one of those mistakes would have killed Madeline if she had seen a doctor, but that is a very unlikely outcome. The doctors do the best they can, but this group, and these parents did not. They sat and prayed to a non existant God in hope of a miracle (which would be the first of it’s kind I’d like to point out). They claim they didn’t have enough faith, but I’d like to propose they didn’t have enough brains to realise their delusion and help their daughter.
On the good side of this story (if indeed we can view any of it as good), this entire event has become very public, not just in the blogging community, but in international news as well. One can only hope that more parents get this message, and send their children to doctors instead of using prayer.
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Hehe, I wrote something about this. I think it’s disgusting what the parents did.
Nice post.
soar
31 Mar 08 at 5:30 pm (GMT)
I assure you most persons of faith are sickened by this as much as you are. And the fact that a religious body would co-sign this stupidity just leaves me speechless.
I have friends across many faiths and have friends and relatives who are atheists and in our discussions of this situation, we found that we all agree stupidity at this level is mindboggling.
Thank you for the post — discussion about this is necessary to hopefully halt others from making the same grave mistakes.
Raquita
31 Mar 08 at 5:37 pm (GMT)
I agree that discussion about this is necessary, and I’m in the middle of creating a forum to go alongside this website to discuss certain issues and provide a better debating platform for everyone.
Adrian Hayter
31 Mar 08 at 7:13 pm (GMT)
For those of us that believe in Heaven, she is looking down at the parents and thanking them for their decision. I know my conclusion will seem illogical to the unbeliever however, this is part of our faith. Jesus Christ overcame death, so can you, you only need to believe in Him. Draw near to the Saviour and the Saviour will draw near to you but, you need to make the first move.
hg
31 Mar 08 at 10:05 pm (GMT)
hg,
If you are wrong then that girl only lived 11 years and died in pain and suffering. Since there is a large chance you are indeed wrong (since it’s a faith issue) then which would you rather:
1) A long life full of satisfaction with the possibility of eternal glory at the end.
2) A short life of pain with the possibility of eternal glory at the end.
Either way you get the eternal glory (or not), so why are you fully in support of torturing young girls???
Adrian Hayter
1 Apr 08 at 12:39 am (GMT)
…torturing young girls??? How does one conclude that from what I wrote???
“For those of us that believe in Heaven, she is looking down at the parents and thanking them for their decision. I know my conclusion will seem illogical to the unbeliever however, this is part of our faith. Jesus Christ overcame death, so can you, you only need to believe in Him. Draw near to the Saviour and the Saviour will draw near to you but, you need to make the first move.”
These are your words:
“I agree that discussion about this is necessary, and I’m in the middle of creating a forum to go alongside this website to discuss certain issues and provide a better debating platform for everyone.” What kind of debate are you aspiring to attain?
Torturing young girls!??? What kind of mind thinks of such thoughts? What are you exposing your mind to that you would come up with such a horrifying conclusions?
To answer your questions…Long life, short life, “only lived 11 years”…no one is guaranteed any of these life spans and they all pale in comparison to eternity. Also, no one has the choice on how long one lives.
I will remember you my prayers tonight, Adrian Hayter.
Your friend hg.
hg
1 Apr 08 at 1:25 am (GMT)
HG, you are all sorts of stupid. The girl would have lived if the parents had sent her to a doctor. It was an easily treatable condition - don’t bother bitching at me the girl chose to put her trust in Jesus or whatever other crap you might be willing to parade around. The cold hard fact is that she was ELEVEN. Too young to stand up to her parents, to young probably to fully understand what was going on and near the end definitely too sick. Even if she hadn’t been brainwashed to think that prayer was going to help, she couldn’t have done anything with her parents so blind and so stupid.
If your useless god can’t even heal an easily treatable disease like hers, and in fact lets her die and lets her die in circumstances that bring disrepute and ridicule of your religion, what makes you think he will ever hear your prayers?
Tens of thousands of children die every day of starvation in Africa. Amputees the world over live forever with their disability. God never does anything for any of them, why would he have done anything for one little girl in one hick town? Why would he EVER do anything for YOU? Unless you believe you’re the only one in the world with true faith, that there aren’t amputees praying just as hard as this girl’s idiot parents were?
Why did they send her to get immunized at age 3 anyway, why not just pray to your Jesus? Have YOU ever gone to the doctor, you doctor-visiting heathen? Was it because maybe your oxygen was restricted as you were born, leaving you with the mental retardation you so obviously show off to the world?
Also, I hate you, your friends and everything both you and they represent. Just thought I should get it out there.
Healyhatman
1 Apr 08 at 2:21 am (GMT)
HG You said:
“To answer your questions…Long life, short life, “only lived 11 years”…no one is guaranteed any of these life spans and they all pale in comparison to eternity. Also, no one has the choice on how long one lives.”
Her parents had the choice you bitch. They had the choice and they chose to let her die.
Healyhatman
1 Apr 08 at 2:22 am (GMT)
hg,
How did I come to the conclusion that you think torturing young girls is ok? Like so:
1) You believe that the Madeline is up in Heaven thanking her parents.
2) Her parents did not take her to the doctor and purposefully denied her medical attention which would have otherwise saved her life. They, by all definitions, tortured and murdered her.
3) Since Madeline has no way of contacting you or anyone else, I assume that you agree with your statement of faith (that Madeline is thanking her parents). You think that Madeline thanking her parents is good.
4) Since her parents tortured and murdered her, and you believe that thanking them for torturing and murdering her is good, you conclusively believe that the torture and murder of this young girl is good.
Therefore, by a process of something called rational thought (which I doubt you even understand), I can safely conclude that you believe torturing and murdering young girls is fine.
As to your second point, about nobody knowing the relative lifespans. Yes, you are correct in some ways. However, by the power of rational though and general statistics, it is very much more likely for a girl with diabetes to live longer if she is given medication and cared for than for people to ignore her. It is how is has worked for years in the past, and I see no reason why it wouldn’t have worked here.
You people just prove how ignorant religion is becoming. You deny evidence that supports Evolution because it goes against a 2000 year old book with so many errors it’s become a laughing stock amongst the intellectual world, and you agree that parents should just ignore their children, torture them, and murder them through neglect. You are no better than the parental scum that did this to Madeline, and you sicken me.
Adrian Hayter
1 Apr 08 at 3:09 am (GMT)
To Healyhatman,
Starvation, amputees, pre-mature death, etc, you’re the person that says, “life is not fair.” I’m telling you everything happens for a reason. For every tragedy there’s another story of victory despite of the tragedy. But those stories don’t make the headlines, thus we get brainwashed with all the hopelessness that exists. Jesus Christ died so that we can have victory over death. There’s victory in death, why do you think the story of everlasting life by believing in Jesus is still alive today? The truth stands the test of time.
Being a first time blogger I thought I would be having discussiions with inspiring, tolerant, thought provoking and open-minded individuals, based on the previous blogs, do you find an inkling of that? Maybe that is why Christians are to be set apart, who wants to be called bitch, stupid and “why are you fully in support of torturing young girls???”
People resort to name calling when they can’t defend their position. Just watch the election campaigns and see what party resort to name calling and personal attacks, that’s the party that will eventually lose in November.
I’ll be praying for you my friend.
hg
hg
1 Apr 08 at 3:43 am (GMT)
Adrian,
In the spirit of having an open mind, if I were to renounce my faith in Jesus Christ and IF i were to pursue atheism, what ONE book would you have me read?
I look forward to your response.
Have a good night.
hg
hg
1 Apr 08 at 4:56 am (GMT)
I would say the bible, so you can see how stupid you’ve been for so many years.
Healyhatman
1 Apr 08 at 5:02 am (GMT)
It’s funny to hear atheists raise up any moral arguments when they really can’t account for morality, but to only place some kind of generic goodness for their fellow human being. Why? Why raise up anything moral? What difference does it make what one animal does to another? I know why, they do that because even atheists are created in God’s image.
Steve
1 Apr 08 at 5:24 am (GMT)
Are you saying, Steve, that it’s moral to deny a little 11 year old girl simple medical treatment to save her life? God wants you to watch while little girls die does he? That’s the kind of God your God is? The kind who commands you to ignore common sense and allow your children to die? If so I spit on your false and unjust “God”.
On the topic of morality, firstly are you claiming only Christians are the really moral ones and secondly before you go claiming that atheists can’t account for [morality] maybe you should use that brain of yours and do some reading on the subject. You’ll discover plenty of discussions and explanations for the existence of apparent human morals.
Also, choke on your food.
Healyhatman
1 Apr 08 at 5:35 am (GMT)
Of course I’m not saying that it’s moral to deny ANYONE simple medical treatment. Please don’t be irrational. What I don’t understand is how is that relevant in an atheist worldview? I mean, what one animal does (or doesn’t do) for another, what does that matter? You raise a moral complaint…but on what grounds? Where does the atheist get his benchmark for any moral complaint? You do because, like all human beings, you have this innate feeling in your soul, your consciousness that God placed there. You call it “common sense”. Without God in the picture, who defines what “common sense” is? Society? If so, then Hitler’s army needs to be apologized to because executing Jews was the law of their “society” at the time. It was obviously wrong because God said, “Thou shall not murder”. I’m afraid that you have been asleep at the wheel of your studies on morality and “common” sense. And since you raised this Mother Teresa moral complaint about this 11 year old girl, I assume you feel the same about babies being executed (1 every 24 hrs) all across America at Abortion clinics right?
Steve
1 Apr 08 at 5:58 am (GMT)
No I see a difference between “people” and “unconscious cluster of cells”
But like I told you regarding morality - READ about it. Try asktheatheist.com
Healyhatman
1 Apr 08 at 6:52 am (GMT)
hg,
Which book? Well I think it would have to be Richard Dawkins’ “The God Delusion” which puts forward the arguments against God, but more importantly, defends atheism against things like immorality and Pascal’s wager. If you don’t get converted by it, then you will at least understand how atheism isn’t morally wrong, and that it’s a perfectly valid and rational interpretation of the world.
Steve,
If you are interested in atheism and morality, please read my post on the subject: http://atheistblogger.com/2008/03/25/a-question-of-morality/
It details democratic morality which as far as I can tell has been theorized by other scientists, and of course the evidence supporting it is clearly visible.
-Adrian
Adrian Hayter
1 Apr 08 at 7:32 am (GMT)
[...] Praying for the sick [...]
Blown wide open - Praying for the sick part 2 | The Atheist Blogger
1 Apr 08 at 9:23 am (GMT)
Look I’m a christian and I am totally shocked by the ideas HG is spewing here.
Look its real basic if you are a person of faith you take your kid to the Dr. - THE BEST ONE YOU CAN FIND mind you - and you pray for them. If you aren’t a person of faith you take your kid to the Dr, BEST ONE YOU CAN FIND and put your faith in medicine. These parents missed a very very important step in either situation. POINT BLANK. There is no anount of faith or belief that makes it okay - none. No rationalle, no defense none. Kids are gifts no matter what your faith or if you have any. And they are to be protected, those parents failed and should be held accountable.
HG -
Christians are not to be set apart - your thought process causes me to set you apart because it is not rational. I fully expect charges to be brought on that childs parents because their actions are wrong.
And anyone else who beleives as those parents do- and chose to with hold medical treatment on the basis of faith alone I beleive should have their parenting thoughly examined
Raquita
1 Apr 08 at 2:45 pm (GMT)
Well said Raquita. Whereas others might disagree with me, I’m fully aware that there are Christians out there who think rationally and you are evidently one of these people. I do think though that religion should be separated from the state as far (and further perhaps) as it has been here in the UK. I think the most similar case over here was one a few years back when a young child was tortured (literally) and tied up by her family, who accused her of being a witch.
Luckily, they were all arrested and will spend a good portion of their lives behind bars where they belong. There are no religious laws in the U.K that would have hindered that sentence, and if this Madeline case were to be in England instead, her parents would have been arrested and charged within hours of her death.
Adrian Hayter
1 Apr 08 at 3:59 pm (GMT)
I agree whole heartedly in the seperation of church and state, I don’t want my government involved in my church and vice versa - I’ve had more arguments with relatives who chose to vote the way their pastor said they should rather than think for themselves. Casting votes simply because someone is stanchly pro life and anti gay marriage is politically no better than chosing to not medicate your child but rather to pray for a miracle. (I am pro both issues - choice and equal rights -including gay marriage rights)
I can easily understand why so many people think so poorly of christians - or at the very least american ones. We,Americans, in general suffer too easily from herd mentality, and are entirely too judgemental and easily swayed, in my humble opinion. We rely to heavily on CNN and news bites that don’t give enough information. Hopefully change is growing and taking root in our younger generations acaross the globe..
Raquita
1 Apr 08 at 5:38 pm (GMT)
I have to say Raquita, that after all the Christians we have had on this blog, you are most definitely a breath of fresh air. To find someone who is both religious but understands rational thinking, and who supports the right to choose, and gay marriage! I’m not going to let you leave the blog :P
Go to the forums and register quickly!!! Hehehe
Adrian Hayter
1 Apr 08 at 6:59 pm (GMT)
funny thing I used to get your blog in my reader and lost track of it or something and it came up again with this post out of nowhere hopefully the glich is fixed and I will get more of your posts.
Raquita
1 Apr 08 at 7:05 pm (GMT)