The Atheist Conspiracy
Shhh! I haven’t got much time, and I need to tell the world before THEY find me and delete this. The world needs to know the TRUTH, and THEY will stop at nothing to stop me!
Atheists claim to not believe in gods, but this is a lie. Deep down they really know there is a God, but they don’t like what this means and so they lie about what they believe. So remember, the next time you meet an atheist, despite them claiming that they have no belief in gods, they secretly know that He exists!
…or so some people like to claim, like David if he is reading this. David is an acquaintance of mine; we do the same course; we talk about computing often. David is a nice chap. David is also a Christian who is on a mission to convert my soul to Jesus. He is a member of Royal Holloway’s unofficial Christian Union, which I attend for the fun and cakes.
Tonight I went along, wearing a t-shirt that says “Thank God I’m an Atheist”. It’s meant to be ironic, an atheist thanking “God”, but the joke is lost on some people. Some people have said I am “stupid” for wearing it because it is contradictory. Some people have no sense of humour.
Whether or not David understood the t-shirt or not isn’t the issue, it never came up. What is the issue is his insistence that whilst I say I do not believe in God, I really know he exists “deep down”. To him, this is a good argument. To me, this is an insult. It is not only implying I am a liar, but also that I am stupid. Only a stupid person would choose not to believe (and thereby end up with a one-way ticket to Hell) if they knew that God existed.
So no David, I do not “know” God exists deep down. I do not know if God exists at all, and I think the existence of God is somewhat unknowable, at least for myself. Since I do not know if God exists or not, and I have seen no reason to believe one does, I also do not believe in gods. This brings me quickly to the second point I wanted to outline:
Agnostic atheists do exist.
Trust me, they do. Just ask the vast majority of atheist readers of my blog, and I’m sure they will be happy to tell you. That said, I’m glad you actually understood the definition of agnosticism. You were quite right in saying it states that “God is unknowable”. Where you get confused is where this links in with atheism. I could go on about how knowledge and belief cover different things, but I suspect there are far better sites out there that handle it much better than I could.
So no David, despite what you might think, I am not an agnostic instead of an atheist, I am both.
I do hope you take my advice, go to Google, and search for “Agnostic Atheism”. In fact, if you are reading this (and I hope you are), here is a link. The first three results (Wikipedia, All About Philosophy, and About.com) all have material you should read on the subject, and hopefully the next time you wish to talk about atheism/religion, you’ll have the decency to respect my views as I respect yours.
See you in class tomorrow,
Adrian
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Wait…. did you say “fun and cakes”? YOU DID! That’s it! I’m converting. Does atheism have cakes? Noooooooooooo. I go where the cake is.
Oliver
7 Oct 08 at 1:53 am (GMT)
I went along with one of my atheist friends, we looked over at the cakes table, and I said “that’s what our group needs…cake”. I’m gonna buy some for our meeting tomorrow.
Adrian Hayter
7 Oct 08 at 2:16 am (GMT)
or donuts
mmmmm cakes and donuts, I can see the atheists clamoring at you door now.
I do not know for 100% certain that a god doesn’t exist, but the possibility is so remote (as is the possibility of a flying pink invisible unicorn) that I may as well state god(s) do not exist.
does that make me agnostic, atheist, or agnostic atheist?
OzAtheist
7 Oct 08 at 4:06 am (GMT)
Depends on whether you think God’s existence can ever be known or not. Certainty, belief, and knowledge are all similar but still different things.
For example, I don’t think you can know God’s existence, I’m 100% certain that there are no gods, and I don’t believe in any because of this.
Being 100% certain about anything doesn’t mean you are always right or course :D, but given the circumstances I think gods are impossible.
Adrian Hayter
7 Oct 08 at 10:52 am (GMT)
Adrian,
I had a question for you. You consistently refer to ‘agnostic atheists’ and ‘agnostic theists’, and I agree with your points. But my misunderstanding of nomenclature has me confused on one thing–
Isn’t ‘agnostic theism’ a subset/superset/pseudonym of deism? Based on my random perusal of wikipedia, deists have a belief that a deity exists, but believe there’s no way to know for sure/prove such a thing, and they also believe that there is no such thing as divine intervention whatsoever (or, in your terminology, they are ‘brights’). Basically, they lack the ultimate knowledge and the ability to empirically examine (agnostic) their belief (theists) in such deities.
How does deism fit in to everything, and is it possible to be simply straight agnostic (ie., to say, “I neither believe nor disbelieve because there’s no possible way to know for sure”). You make it sound as if you either believe or you do not, which I can’t necessarily comprehend; wouldn’t you say it’s possible to ’straddle the line’?
Personally, I am relatively certain that there are things that are simply beyond human knowledge (think back to the days when metor showers were thought to be supernatural) either at present, or always will be (such as multidimensional theories that are simply not provable via anything but math because of the idea that we’re locked in to our 3(4)-dimensional existence–even though we may one day find our way out of it!)
I’d be interested to hear your take on these things. Thanks!
Todd
7 Oct 08 at 2:27 pm (GMT)
I always thought of deism as agnostic theism, like the guy above says. And as I always say, if you must be a theist, be an agnostic theist. :)
The Nerd
7 Oct 08 at 9:29 pm (GMT)
Agnostic atheism is a hard sell to someone who believes they are one in the same.
Where can I find the t-shirt? All google found was a bunch of cafe press stores.
cale
8 Oct 08 at 8:02 pm (GMT)
@Todd
I think there are similarities between deism and agnostic theism, but I do not think they are as closely linked as you suggest. There is nothing stopping an agnostic theist from looking a survivor of a tragedy and saying “God saved that person”. Being agnostic, they will not try to prove it or even say it is definitely a miracle, but they will still believe that God intervened.
Deism rejects supernatural occurrences such as miracles, preferring to believe that their God started everything off and only watches, never interfering. They will look at the survivor and say “that person was just lucky”.
Well agnosticism isn’t a position of belief, so the first half of your statement I take issue with. I think the closest definition I have found is that of either “undecided” or “apatheism”.
I think the issue of “undecided” about belief in God is tricky. It all depends on whether or not we can control this belief (which I don’t think we can). I have met few people who say “I don’t know what I believe” and I doubt this is true for any of them.
If you take atheism as nonbelief/disbelief of theism, then I cannot see how you can be on the fence about anything. It isn’t possible to “half believe in gods” without believing in some way in gods.
Perhaps I’ve got it wrong, and someone who really thinks they are completely “agnostic” could come along and explain though.
I got it from AtheistNation.co.uk, and there are a few other stores I found for the USA. Searching Froogle usually finds loads.
Adrian Hayter
8 Oct 08 at 9:51 pm (GMT)
Have you looked into Pandeism much? Also the subject of a decent Wikipedia article.
Tao
9 Oct 08 at 1:51 am (GMT)
Here’s a video explaining in simple terms the difference between atheism, theism, and agnosticism.
Jake
9 Oct 08 at 4:47 pm (GMT)
Sorry doesn’t look like link worked. Here it is…
http://revver.com/video/225621/what-is-an-atheist/
Jake
9 Oct 08 at 4:48 pm (GMT)
Regarding agnostic atheists, I’m fairly sure if any atheist has put significant thought into it they would agree that they are indeed both, and not just one or the other.
While theists can be 100% sure in their beliefs because of their faith, the nature of being atheist does not allow for that. We have yet to find any way to disprove god completely, just as theists have yet to find any way to prove god completely. Their faith lets them ignore that point, but our logic dictates that we have to leave that last 1% open to the possibility of a god.
While my atheism may not have originated because of evidence against god, it is now more than anything else how I support my belief. However this means that if I was ever presented with enough evidence to sway me towards belief in a higher power, I would follow that new logic. That, in my opinion, is the strength in being atheist, having the open mind to assess the evidence presented. It just happens that evidence against is stronger.
My point is we can’t be 100% positive against a god as theists can towards one, and that uncertainty makes us slightly agnostic, or as I think of it, as atheist as reasonably possible.
Joe
17 Oct 08 at 2:31 am (GMT)