Ray Comfort is a Coward
A few months back, Ray Comfort asked Richard Dawkins to debate with him. Dawkins agreed, but requested a $100,000 donation to his foundation for reason and science (the standard rate he requests), and that the debate would be recorded. Ray offered $20,000 instead, and Dawkins refused. Ray could have left it at that, saying he was not able to pay anything higher, but instead he released a video with a futile attempt to mock Dawkins over a quotemined section of “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed”. That alone was cowardly, but what happened a few days ago is enough to disgust any upstanding member of society.
As most people know, Thunderf00t is a very popular atheist YouTuber, and also a commentator on science, mainly evolutionary biology. He has been featured on many blogs, including Pharyngula, on certain issues such as the VenomFangX DMCA debacle and his popular “Why do people laugh at creationists?” series. Thunderf00t is, by all accounts, a mainstream and prominent atheist. He might not have books, but he has over 50,000 subscribers and the entire atheist blogosphere behind him.
So Thunderf00t decided to ask Ray Comfort to a discussion, since he was going travelling and would be close to where the Living Waters ministry is based. He dutifully contacted Living Waters, but they told him to contact Ray directly on his blog. This is the comment (now removed from Ray’s blog as requested) that Thunderf00t left:
For the attention of Ray Comfort,
Your staff (T Ramos) suggested I post this here.I run the popular pro-science youtube channel under the screen name of Thunderf00t.
For context.
Thunderf00t 54 000 subscribers
Thewayofthemaster 9 000 subscribersThis summer I will be touring the US and should passing near to LA (the Mnt Wilson Observatory).
You have previously stated that you wish to have a public discussion with “prominent atheists.”;
My proposal would be simple and honest.
You and me, one room, one camera. Through civil discourse we examine our points of contest and points of agreement. We both then take a copy of the video. I will put it up uncut on my channel.
You are free to do with your copy as you wish.If you have an interest in such a project, let me know some windows of opportunity and we will see if we can converge on a date.
If you accept or decline the offer, please delete this post. To otherwise will lead to pointless speculation about motives.
I would rather not have made such an invitation in public but it was suggested by your staffBest wishes,
Thunderf00t
Polite, honest, and with all good intentions. Thunderf00t established himself as a popular science-minded atheist, and proposed a simple format for discussion. He didn’t even want a debate! He just wanted the two of them to sit down and discuss their views as any two men would do in a polite conversation. He requested it be recorded, so that others may watch, and Ray can do whatever he likes with his copy. The key thing to note at this point is that Thunderf00t demanded no money.
Ray Comfort accepted the proposal, but with his sick and twisted sense of morality:
Regarding your request for a debate. I would be more than happy to do this. The only condition would be an honorarium of $US100,000, payable to “Professor Richard Dawkins,” on my behalf.
In other words, Ray wants to use Thunderf00t to get to Richard Dawkins. He gets a decent and well-thought out proposal to a discussion, and Ray turns it around and throws back an insult. This is a despicable act of cowardice, and is deeply unfair to Thunderf00t, who was willing to give Ray the discussion he wanted, for free, and by means of a civil conversation. What kind of morality is that? Punish a person who comes to you with an honest request in order to get back at someone who you failed to meet the requirements of before? It’s beyond Ray’s usual ridiculous nature; this was pure greed, coupled with the kind of scheming you get from stereotypical “evil geniuses” in films.
Ray once agreed with Ben Stein’s criticism of Richard Dawkins, that he was fine with Intelligent Design, just not certain designers, like God. Well now Ray has shown his true colours, we can say a similar thing about him. Ray is not interested in debate or discussion with “prominent atheists”, only discussions with certain prominent atheists…namely Richard Dawkins.
Of course, who better to explain this than Thunderf00t himself:
Do Thunderf00t a favour and favourite his videos, rate them with 5 stars (it counters the votebotes that attack his account regularly), and leave a comment on his channel. He certainly deserves it.
Contact Adrian Hayter
My Facebook
My Atheist Nexus Page
My Twitter
My Reddit
My Atheist Spot
My FriendFeed
My Technorati
Atheist Forums
Loading ...
Sorry…but why didn't Dawkins just take on Ray? 20K is quite a lot of money…not that it should matter.
I hate to be the voice of dissent against Dawkins…but, couldn't he have simply taken Ray on without asking for money? It just gives Ray ammo (though not GOOD ammo) against him as greedy and snooty –whether it is true or not.
I just see it as an opportunity to absolutely destroy and embarrass Comfort in front of a national audience, perhaps it should be taken? Think of the Christians that will want to watch Ray do this and end up hearing a voice of reason in the process…perhaps for the first time….It could be a big hit to christianity
Because Richard Dawkins doesn't like debating Creationists as it gives them publicity and makes them look like they have a valid argument to argue about.
Ray Comfort has made himself look like a complete idiot on more than one occasion both on radio and TV; it would be silly of Dawkins to waste his time on someone so naive and ignorant of the facts.
Though it would be hilarious to watch :D
Agree with Joe on this one.
Of course they want to discuss with Dawkins. For them, he's the enemy. Not evolution, no science. Is easier to attack one person than an idea (specially a solid one) and they've make him the incarnation of that idea.
Couple things to think of in this case
1) It's a standard fee that Dawkins asks for. Give in to one request and how many more will demand to be debated for cheap or free? These speaking/debate engagements are part of his livelihood. While I'm sure he's open to doing some for reduced fees (or free), if he's not picky about who he chooses to "help out", far more time would be spent both fending off requests and dealing with the negative press and blown-out-of-proportion rumours surrounding his refusals than on the actual debate and it would likely severely impact the work he does. Requiring a large fee stops every Christian who wants to take a stab at him from asking and if they do and he refuses, it's awfully hard for them to squawk about it (and how he's discriminating against them because they're not "important enough") when it's because they weren't willing to pay the speaking fee. Most well-known scholars and scientists require speaking fees when they're not doing events for charity so while Dawkins' fees might be viewed as unusually high, they are not as easily viewed as him being snooty or greedy as him doing some non-charity engagements for cheap/free and others not.
2) I doubt many borderline "convertible" Christians would watch. In the end, it would likely end up as a waste of time. Props to Thunderh00f for having enough hope and faith in humanity to undertake the task but from what I've seen from reading atheist vs religious blog posts, there would have been those who don't care what Dawkins says because they can't understand it, those who don't care because they've already dismissed it and those that don't care because they've already committed the entirety of his life, works and arguments to memory.
Plus there's what Joe said.
And that should be "Thunderf00t", not "Thunderh00f".
Please forgive any other glaring spelling/grammatical errors. I still haven't learned that I can't write/speak properly when it's the middle of the night and I haven't slept!
The money Dawkins was asking for was for his foundation, not himself. He always seems to be busy doing something of use, and debating a Creationist isn't very useful, although exposing the flaws of Creationism to people who aren't ignorant is. So the reason he was asking for the money wasn't for greed at all, it was for the benefit of others, and had the challenge had some real use then he would have taken it without payment (as he has done before). As it stands, Dawkins has taken on and defeated many Creationists before, and therefore taking on another one who won't take in anything that Dawkins throws at him won't be of much use to Dawkins credentials.
One could easily be critical of Ray Comfort here…was it that Comfort couldn't afford the cost, or was it that he didn't want to donate money to a non-Christian organization?
We shouldn't critcize Dawkins for his decision unless we know for certain that Ray couldn't afford to pay $100,000 to the foundation.
The money Dawkins was asking for was for his foundation, not himself, so he wasn't being greedy.
He always seems to be busy doing something of use, and debating a Creationist isn't very useful (seeing as they don't learn anything anyway), although exposing the flaws of Creationism to people who aren't ignorant is.
So the reason he was asking for the money wasn't for greed at all, it was for the benefit of others, and had the challenge had some real use then he would have taken it without payment (as he has done before).
As it stands, Dawkins has taken on and defeated many Creationists before, and therefore taking on another one who won't take in anything that Dawkins throws at him won't be of much use to Dawkins credentials…which is where the money comes into it.
One could easily be critical of Ray Comfort here…was it that Comfort couldn't afford the cost, or was it that he didn't want to donate money to a non-Christian organization?
We shouldn't critcize Dawkins for his decision unless we know for certain that Ray couldn't afford to pay $100,000 to the foundation.
Thunderf00t is not a prominent atheist but rather a popular atheist among his own kind. As you note, he has the whole atheist blogosphere behind him; whether or not is that is true I don't. But just as Pharyngula is a vehicle which PZ Myers uses to make fallacious attacks against religion and its believers, so too does Thunderf00t use his varies web spaces to make the same sort of attacks against religious people. His "why do people laugh at creationists," for example is one long ad hominem and straw man attack. When you call someone stupid, as he does creationists, that is simply an invalid, fallacious argument which reeks of desperation. He's also called a youtube user who goes by the name "howtheworldworks," in this same fashion, calling a subscriber whore, sir stares a lot, etc; this after appearing in a video where Thunderf00t rails against these types of attacks. Of course, he was speaking of when they are directed at him.These types of arguments are, of course, common among atheists. Dawkins, for example, seems to think calling religious people stupid, uneducated, deluded, inferior, etc is valid but yet he refuses to debate creationists. I am not claiming to be a creationists, but you would think that if religious people are as stupid, uneducated, deluded, inferior, etc as he claims, he could easily out debate a creationists. Dawkins even refuses to debate those who support intelligent design, which is not creationism.